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Result 1 of 100:
|  Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 |  | Re: Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #1 Today at 9:02am » | |
GT!
If there's only one resurrection, mind telling me, from where, all of these misled ones ON THE EARTH happen to come from? When the thousand year reign of Christ is over? Be interesting to see you cover that point! For the benefit of all!
7 "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." {Revelation 20:7-10 NIV}
That scripture is very clear GT! satan, when he's released from the abysse, is released back on to this earth, to mislead, as it says, the NATIONS. They 'march across the breadth of the earth, and surround the camp of the Holy Ones,' it says. If there's only one resurrection that includes ALL; how do you account for the fact, that the 144000 are in the spirit realm with the Christ, ruling as King Priests, while this other crowd is surrounding the camp of the Holy Ones, on this earth? Isn't the reason because, with a body of flesh and bones one could not live in the spirit realm, and survive? Now GT! These individuals, here pictured, have been living on this earth for a Thousand years, after the Battle of Armageddon; so they have inherited the earthly sphere of life, and have obviously been resurrected, to this earth, not the invisilbe heavens. Does it really take a rocket scientist, to figure this all out? Did the creator not create this earth to be inhabited? Or did he simply create it for nothing? With no intention of anyone ever living on it? Let's look at that GT!
18 "For this is what the LORD says—
God is the Creator of the heavens.
He formed the earth and made it;
He established it;
He did not create it to be empty,
[but] formed it to be inhabited —
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other." {Isaiah 45:18 HCSB} How long did Jehovah wish it to be inhabited? Note the words of the Psalmist:
29 "Those who do what is right will be given the land. {This Earth}
They will live in it forever." {Psalm 37:29 NIRV}
So, then, these ones living on this earth forever, will be subjects of that heavenly Government, for where is the Government today, that does not have subjects, under them?
Another point to consider, is, just whom, have these King Priests, ruling with the Christ for the Thousand year period been ruling over, if, as you say, ALL receive of the first resurrection, to immortal spirit life in the heavens? Whose been ruling over this vast crowd of individuals misled by satan from among the Nations after he's been cut looose for one final time? For that entire Thousand year period? Was they all just left on their own, to do their own thing, as it were? Now wouldn't our Boy satan love to see that going on? More murder and mayhem, probably on a scale, we couldn't even imagine.
No! If, ALL received of the same resurrection, there would be no subjects left on this earth to rule over, and what good is a Gonernment with no subjects to govern?
GT! I'm thinking, you'd best take a good, long, hard, look, at, your belief, because your thinking is in very serious error!
Was it to be true, that there is only one resurrection, and that resurrection, is the first resurrection, to immortal life in the heavens, as King Priests, as the Bible says; then you're leaving all dead mankind right from Adam, in their graves, with no hope of a resurrection! No hope for anymore life prospects what-so-ever! Main reason being, Jehovah has clearly told us in his word the Bible, that only 144,000 are chosen for the first resurrection, from AMONG mankind. Will you argue that out with Jehovah, the one who does all of the choosing? Not a very good idea GT! Shiner!
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Result 2 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #2 Yesterday at 4:45pm » | |
GT!
I forgot to cover one very important point! That was the parable of the wedding feast. You will notice, one in there is pictured as not having on any wedding clothes. That was a picture of the entire realm of Religious Christendom who all believe that they, are heaven bound! They will be 'bound' alright, but not in any way they are going to enjoy, as the parable brings out. They all will be rendered speechless, and end up weeping and gnashing their teeth. Not a pretty sight! Not at all! Shiner
10"Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11"But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was NOT DRESSED IN WEDDING CLOTHES, 12and he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And THE MAN WAS SPEECHLESS. 13"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." {Matthew 22:10-13 NASB} Poor Religious Christendom, eh? Shiner!
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Result 3 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #3 Yesterday at 4:11pm » | |
GT!
Another thought on this! Do you suppose, this World of mankind today, that is thinking their all going to get one thing, will turn around and get somthing none of them are expecting?
I say that for a couple of reasons. One! Jesus said, that only a few was on the road to life, as he mentioned in the following words of his:
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it." Matthew 7:13,14- Luke 13:23,24- HCSB} Now, who are these few GT? Could it be, those mentioned in the following words?
17"And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with THE REMNANT of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus." {Revelation 12:17 DT}
Or these ones who receive the final sealing just prior to the outbreak of the great Tribulation; which will begin when those four Angels release those four winds of destruction?
1 "And after this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding fast the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from [the] sunrising, having [the] seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it had been given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3saying, Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we shall have sealed the bondmen of our God upon their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred [and] forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of [the] sons of Israel: " Revelation 7:1-4 DT}
Now, GT! An inspired Prophet of God, has clearly told us that only 144,000 receive this mark on their forheads! That's not all that difficult to understand, now is it?
Now, look what occurs after this final sealing work is completed:
14 "The great Day of the LORD is near,
near and rapidly approaching.
Listen, the Day of the LORD—
there the warrior's cry is bitter.
15 That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of destruction and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness,
16 a day of trumpet [blast] and battle cry
against the fortified cities,
and against the high corner towers.
17 I will bring distress on mankind,
and they will walk like the blind
because they have sinned against the LORD.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their flesh like dung.
18 Their silver and their gold
will not be able to rescue them
on the day of the LORD's wrath.
The whole earth will be consumed
by the fire of His jealousy.
For He will make a complete,
yes, a horrifying end
of all the inhabitants of the earth." {Zephaniah 1:14-18 HCSB}
Do you see that GT? "A Horrifying end of ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH!"
Who is it that will survive GT? Where are they? Let Joel tell you!
32"And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jehovah shall be saved: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as Jehovah hath said, and for the residue whom Jehovah shall call." {Joel 2:32 DT} Joel is in complete harmony with John, in reporting only a residue will survive; and look where they are said to be! In Mount Zion and in Jerusalem GT!
This is not earthly Mount Zion, nor is it earthly Jereusalem! It is heavenly Mount Zion! Heavenly new Jerusalem GT! Where the Christ is seen pictured standing with the 144,000, with him, at Revelation 14:1-
Now to show you it is heavenly new Jerusalem read the following:
18 "For you have not come to what could be touched, to a blazing fire, to darkness, gloom, and storm, 19 to the blast of a trumpet, and the sound of words. (Those who heard it begged that not another word be spoken to them, 20 for they could not bear what was commanded: And if even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned! 21 And the appearance was so terrifying that Moses said, I am terrified and trembling. 22 Instead, YOU HAVE COME TO MOUNT ZION, TO THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels in festive gathering, 23 to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect, 24 to Jesus (mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the [blood] of Abel." {Hebrews 12: 18:18-24 HCSB} Not enough GT? Then try this too!
12 "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the NEW JERUSALEM, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name." {Revelation 3:12 NIV} Lastly this one:
"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." {Revelation 21:10 NIV}
It has to go the way Jesus predicted GT! Only a few will make it out alive, and as Zephaniah predicted, as well, when Jehovah will make a 'horrifing end of all those living on this earth.' All of those who thought that they were heaven bound, will, get the shock of their lives at Armageddon, when Jehovah carries out the words of Zephaniah the Prophet. To their utter, and complete, dismay! Shiner
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Result 4 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #4 Yesterday at 3:46pm » | |
Matthew 22:23; Mark 12:18 - The commentator only points out the Sadducees deny a resurrection. If he's going to correct the record, why not do a more thorough job?
Matthew 22:28 - "at the" singular definite object.
Matthew 22:32 - Single class, "the living"
John 11:24 - Mary knows of a resurrection on the last day. She is not corrected.
Acts 4:2 - No dual ressurection
Acts 17:18 - Since the Greeks had more limited knowledge of Jewish though this would be a great time to add a note about this dual resurrection. None given.
Acts 23:6 - Singular again.
Romans 6:5 - We all are united in the Resurrection of the Christ. In fact, "we will certainly also be united."
1 Cor 15 - In a rather detailed analysis of the process Paul skips your point
Phil 3:10-11 - As Christians we share in death and "attain to the resurrection from the dead". Still missing plurals
2 Tim 2:18 - All Christians look forward to this one thing _in the future_ which contradicts a special currently ruling class.
Heb 6:2 - Not re-engaging "elementry" that is, easy to understand teachings on Baptism and the Resurrection. Very key here that you have complicated both.
Heb 11:35 - The differentiation between some specific resurrections and the general resurrection we all look forward to.
1 Peter 1:3-6 - In a general epistle Peter references one hope. As the Epistle is to all Christians (and it plainly states so in the first two verses) there is one hope.
There's more but I have some papers to finish before the end of the year.
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Result 5 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #5 Yesterday at 2:47pm » | |
GT!
Tell you what GT! You sit down and put me together, this exact same subject, supplying your scriptural references as I have done, to back up everything you say, and we'll compare notes after you do that. You prove to me using the Bible that every word you have spoken to me here here is iron bound truth and cannot be argued. Deal! GT? Shiner
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Result 6 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #6 Yesterday at 12:42pm » | |
Yesterday at 11:48am, shiner wrote:
One might read the the words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:53,54, and assume from that, that, everyone puts on immortality. Notice his words:
53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." {1 Corinthians 15:53,54 ASV}
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And one would assume correctly. Not Paul is very clear. Nor is this the only instance of him saying something to the same effect. Below you depart from Paul and head firmly into territory that only Rutherford and Franz dared tread, because they were wrong.
Quote:| One for the heavenly high calling of God, for spirit life in the heavens, to rule as King Priests |
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As we are adopted into the nation of the patriarchs, that is Israel, we are all Kings and Priests as this was the promise given to them.
Quote:| 6 "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years." {Revelation 20:6 HCSB} In putting on immortality, these ones can no longer die, anymore, the second death, or lake of fire, has no power over these ones. They cannot be harmed by the second death, as noted: |
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I think this is where you go wrong. The word "first" seems to trip you up. You are here confusing the martyrs as a class when they are first because they have already perished and been joined with Christ. That being said, Revelation is a mine field for the unwary and simpler fare is better for the beginner.
Quote:| 36 "And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection." {Luke 20:36 NLT} |
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You should take more care to pay attention to the whole account. In none of the preceding versus does Jesus mention another resurrection. There is only one.
The closing phrase is also important as it reminds us that those that God remembers are _always_ alive in v 38.
Quote:| have to be subjects on this earth to rule over |
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This has been a stumbling block for the society for years. Adam was a type of the Messiah. Was Adam not a king of Earth? Didn't he have Dominion even without "subjects"? There is no need for human subjects, as it were, in the Kingdom of Kings and Priests. This is the point that Lewis pounds home book after book in the Narnia series. All of the Children of Adam and Eve are Kings if they but choose to be.
Quote:Or as Jude predicted:
12 "These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumn—fruitless, TWICE DEAD, pulled out BY THE ROOTS; 13 wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever!" {Jude 12,13} |
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All Christians are alive in God (see above comments) so Jude rightly points out that being saved from death a Christian who persists in sin dies again and needlessly.
Quote:| 14 "It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage." Jude 14-16 ESV} {Matthew 25:41-46} {Zephaniah 1:14-18} |
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Only two classes are mentioned...the damned and the saved.
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Result 7 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Are there two resurrections? How do we know? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
Church Militant
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Posts: 170
Karma: -11 | | Are there two resurrections? How do we know?
« Result #7 Yesterday at 11:48am » | |
Are there two Resurrections? How do we know?
One might read the the words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:53,54, and assume from that, that, everyone puts on immortality. Notice his words:
53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." {1 Corinthians 15:53,54 ASV}
It is understandable, that one reading these verses, might believe, it's talking about, anyone, or everyone; but is that really the case? We will learn, that it is not! We will learn, that there are two resurrections! One for the heavenly high calling of God, for spirit life in the heavens, to rule as King Priests with the Christ for the Thousand year period, the other for the opportunity of everlasting life on this earth. John tells us about, those of these King Priests, in the following words:
9 "And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed [people] for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation." {Revelation 5: 9,10 HCSB} Notice! It doesn't say, every Tribe, language, and people, and Nation, as though all was meant. It says, FROM all these, which would exclude the majority, and specifically chose only certain ones. Mentioned now by John:
6 "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years." {Revelation 20:6 HCSB} In putting on immortality, these ones can no longer die, anymore, the second death, or lake of fire, has no power over these ones. They cannot be harmed by the second death, as noted:
11 "Those who have ears should listen to what the Holy Spirit says to the churches. Those who overcome will not be hurt at all by the second death."{Revelation 2:11 NIRV} Luke also was in harmony with all of this, for he wrote:
36 "And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection." {Luke 20:36 NLT}
We discover that, those of the first resurrection ,being King Priests with the Christ, who experience a resurrection similar to the Christs, are co-rulers with the Christ, and being such, there would of necessity, have to be subjects on this earth to rule over, who would experience a resurrection quite different from the heavenly class, because, with this class, they can, and do die, as I will go on to show. Of course there would be something outanding that would show the difference between, the heavenly resurrection, and the earthly tresurrection. I will focus on what that is now:
1 "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." {Revelation 20:1-3 NIV}
This scripture shows us, that satan will be allowed to go forth
when the Thousand years has ended, to once again mislead a vast number of individuals, because, as it says, he is set free for a short time, to do this misleading. Just how well does satan do at this time in misleading individuals from the Nations? John will explain that:
7 "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." {Revelation 20:7-10 TNIV}
This shows a definite division between the two resurrections! While the lake of fire, the second death, has no power over the high calling of God, all of the earth at this time are, along with satan the devil and his demons, are forever destroyed in the lake of fire, which is the second death, from which there is no retrieval! Anything thrown in that lake, John tells us, is "No more!" Severed for all eternity from Jehovah's helping hand. It will be as the Psalmist predicted for all of them: {Matthew 25:41} {Revelation 21:4}
5 "Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand." {Psalms 88:5 KJV} Or as Jude predicted:
12 "These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumn—fruitless, TWICE DEAD, pulled out BY THE ROOTS; 13 wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever!" {Jude 12,13}
14 "It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage." Jude 14-16 ESV} {Matthew 25:41-46} {Zephaniah 1:14-18}
After reading what the Psalmist and Jude had to say, it's hard to iimagine anyone of these inheriting immortality; is it not? But, how many do inherit heavenly life? Do we have a number supplied us in the Bible, that informs us of that number? John will answer that for us:
1Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. {Revelation 14:1 ESV}
So, an inspired Prophet of Jehovah God, has revealed to us, the exact number chosen for heavenly life, and that's certainly a far cry from the almost eight Billion that inhabit this Planet, now, at this time, isn't it? What about the almost eight Billion, though? What will be their fate? Would any of them receive an eartly ressurection, if killed during the War of the great day of God the Almighty at Armageddon? Was it to be true that they did, it would be far too late, to inherit heavenly life, because all those called chosen and faithful are with the Christ at Armageddon, so there's no room for anymore than what is already there, for the office's that they received. {Revelation 17:14}
Armageddon is a period of divine judgement, so those killed at that time, are in the lake of fire, with no hope of any resurrection at all; no more life at all, ever! Those killed at that time receive no burial places, and one must be in one of those to receive a resurrection. Note where the dead are said to be in Jeremiah!
33 "And the slain of Jehovah shall [be] at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground." {Jeremiah 25:33 DT}
No mourning, grieving or crying over, these ones! Because they all end up eaten by the Bird's and Beast's, they end up as dung on the ground, through the process of digestion. No burial place! No resurrection! Gone! For all eternity!
The Bible is clear! It tells us, that the 'righteous will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it.' Psalms 37:10,11,29 That should be enough to tell us that there are two resurrections! One Heavenly! One Earthly! One should not conclude from that, that everlasting life is a solid guarantee that they WILL live forver. As it was with Adam and his Wife Eve, that life was conditional, on Obedience to the creator. As long as they remained obedient, that life would be assured to them! That's what the Tree of life represented for them both, but they fell, didn't they, and lost out on that life? So too, could we, if we ever followed the same course as satan the devil, or Adam! We too, if alive at that time, and made the decision to deviate from Jehovah's Law's, would receive what Adam, satan, and his cohorts received, only this time, because the matter has already been settled, punishment would be very speedy, very swift, and like Adam, could lose our OPPORTUNITY for life, because that's really all the pair had; only the opportunity for life, conditional on continued obedience.
It should also be noted, that there is no mention of the lake of fire ever being done away with! It will stand as a mute reminder to any; Spirit Angel, or Human, who wishes to go against the express commands of Jehovah God, what will happen to them very quickly, should they decide to rebel, as satan did, as Adam did. The Legal precedent will have been established by the Judge of all the earth, and sentence for any further disobedience will be swift and final. {Genesis 18:25} Shiner
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Result 8 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: A Story that's as old as time!
« Result #8 on Dec 23, 2009, 6:38pm » | |
GT!
Take a look at Revelation 20:5,6 It speaks of the first resurrection, over which the second death has no authority.' These are the ones who have proven themselves faithful to death, and in Luke, it says: "Neither can they die anymore!. Look at Revelation 2:10; 20:7-10 Where satan has once again misled a great crowd of individuals, but fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them all. So, even after the thousand years is over, there are obviously those there, who have not been of the first resurrection,because the second death obviously has authority over them. Meaning they could not have been of the first resurrection, if they have been thrown into that lake and destroyed. Those, as I said, of the first resurrection, as Luke pointed out cannot die anymore, but this crowd does die! Luke 20:36 What does that tell you?
Don't forget GT! There are two classes! One for the heavenly high calling of God to reign with the Christ for the thousand year period, the other class receives the opportunity for everlasting life UNDER the Kingdom of God, to live on this earth. If that is not true, then who would populate this earth, after the great tribulation and the War at Armageddon are over with? Don't forget too, Daniel foretold, that the stone not cut out by human hands would become a Mountain and fill the entire earth. Daniel 2:35,44 Any Government, as you know would have subjects, would it not? Remember where Paul had said: "Our citzenship exists in the heavens." Speaking of course of the High calling of God. Philippians 3:20
Perhaps I wasn't understanding what you meant by re-shaping any too clearly myself.
Didn't the Psalmist tell us, the righteous will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it? Psalms 37:10,11,29
We know that satan was abyssed because of misleading the Nations when he is set free, he goes off once more to mislead the Nations again, and the Nations at the end of the thousand year period are , of course, on this earth, as the Revelation explains: Revelation 20:7-10 While this misleading is going on, all of the High Calling of God are with the Christ in the heavens! All of them! As I said, the fact that those satan manages to mislead, are thrown along with him into that lake shows they couldn't have been of the first resurrection, because they all die; and the heavenly calling cannot die anynore. That shows that there are two resurrections, one heavenly, one earthly. TIred out now! Bedtrime! Shiner
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Result 9 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
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Karma: 10 | | Re: A Story that's as old as time!
« Result #9 on Dec 23, 2009, 1:41pm » | |
Dec 23, 2009, 11:14am, shiner wrote:GT!
Never got the chance to finish that for some reason... believed in an earthly resurrection? They wouldn't even have known during their time period, about the First Resurrection to heavenly life. How could they? If it wasn't open as yet? They wouldn't have known and understood that there was two resurrections; would they? Only the first Century Christian's would have known and understood that, is that not correct? Even the first Century Christian's didn't understand everything, did they? |
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They knew everything that was required of all Christians throughout time. If they didn't, then the Bible is not enough and the Mormons are a shoo in for the One True Faith.
Quote:| I think that is evident by John 10:6 although, not to say, they wouldn't have understood later on. |
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Exactly, the apostles said just that. This is the faith delivered _once_ and then entrusted to the saints (Jude 1:3). As they were entrusted general revelation was no longer needed. Not the revocation of miracles or other visions as the society claims.
Quote:| So, they would have reshaped their belief because of the inauguration of the new covenant established on the Blood of the Christ is that not correct? Sorry for not supplying the necessary scriptures to this, but I'm still half asleep! Shiner's not so shiney, right now! Shiner |
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You're actually engaging, which is far better than what was happening before. If a little sleepiness does that it isn't a bad thing.
As for the question I'm not clear on what you mean by reshaping.
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Result 10 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #10 on Dec 23, 2009, 1:33pm » | |
Dec 23, 2009, 10:57am, shiner wrote:GT!
Without supplying all the scripural information,on this, because I'm sure you already know it, wasn't the way it was reshaped, because, now there was two resurrections to contend with? One for immortality in the heavens to rule as King Priests with the Christ, the other only for the opportunity for everlasting life on this earth?
I think it's in Hebrews where it tells us, that the way into the most Holy, was not open while the first Tent was standing; so considering that, the early Jews would only, if they believed it all, believed |
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There is no Biblical warrant for two classes. None. The Christians consistently believe in a general resurrection of the dead.
The Jewish belief is more muddled and Christianity actually answers why this is so. It is believed that the souls of those who died before Jesus waited in Sheol for release. When Jesus died he descended to release those held captive. The Jews then rightly believed that death wasn't what Christians believed, that it was sorrowful and lacked the joy of the Christian hope. This was the position of the Sadducees (to some extent thought there was muddle there too).
The Pharisees countered that there was a hope spoken of in Daniel that was greater than the traditional belief. Something that Jesus both explained and enacted.
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Result 11 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #11 on Dec 23, 2009, 1:26pm » | |
Dec 23, 2009, 8:28am, shiner wrote:GT!
I'm starting to get the idea, that if I was to continue with this search, I'd find all kinds of incidents the like of which you metioned! Was it not foretold, somewhere, that the Israelite Nation would fight these Wars to gain possession of the promised land? I'm not saying that for certain, but it seems I remember reading something to that effect, somewhere, at one time, in the past. Maybe you'll remember where that was, because right now, my faiiling memory is not up to the task! Shiner |
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You are correct, but not all of them appear to have direct divine support, that is to say there is no message from God. An example of that is the purge of Benjamin in Judges 20.
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Result 12 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #12 on Dec 23, 2009, 1:24pm » | |
Dec 23, 2009, 7:21am, shiner wrote:GT!
Was the following incident the one you was making reference to?
If it was, you can see, they was authorized to do that wiping out!
4 'and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."
5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.' Ezekiel 9:4-6 NIV} Shiner
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One of many.
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Result 13 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #13 on Dec 23, 2009, 1:23pm » | |
[quote author=shiner board=general thread=390 post=3066 time=1261569513]
Which "Entire Village,"
[/quot]
We can start with Ai in Joshua but there are others. Men fleeing into the desert are hunted down and killed. The city is then put to the sword. As God does not change if the Israelites were so ordered it supports my argument. It does not detract from it.
Also worthy of note is that Jesus doesn't tell the Centurion to abandon his position as a soldier and instead praises him. The same for Peter and the officer he converts.
Nor have you yet addressed Israelite service in the Persian army.
Quote:| "Love does not work evil to his neighbor, therefore love is the Laws fulfillment." "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Seems to me, that would bar making War with your neighbor, ever if he fires the first shot. |
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Then Jesus would not have armed his disciples and he wouldn't have committed violence over something as petty as some sales going on in the temple. That is, violence properly directed is not an evil.
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Result 14 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
shiner
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« Result #14 on Dec 23, 2009, 11:14am » | |
GT!
Never got the chance to finish that for some reason... believed in an earthly resurrection? They wouldn't even have known during their time period, about the First Resurrection to heavenly life. How could they? If it wasn't open as yet? They wouldn't have known and understood that there was two resurrections; would they? Only the first Century Christian's would have known and understood that, is that not correct? Even the first Century Christian's didn't understand everything, did they? I think that is evident by John 10:6 although, not to say, they wouldn't have understood later on. So, they would have reshaped their belief because of the inauguration of the new covenant established on the Blood of the Christ is that not correct? Sorry for not supplying the necessary scriptures to this, but I'm still half asleep! Shiner's not so shiney, right now! Shiner
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Result 15 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
shiner
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« Result #15 on Dec 23, 2009, 10:57am » | |
GT!
Without supplying all the scripural information,on this, because I'm sure you already know it, wasn't the way it was reshaped, because, now there was two resurrections to contend with? One for immortality in the heavens to rule as King Priests with the Christ, the other only for the opportunity for everlasting life on this earth?
I think it's in Hebrews where it tells us, that the way into the most Holy, was not open while the first Tent was standing; so considering that, the early Jews would only, if they believed it all, believed
"Early Christian views about life after death, clearly belonged within the Jewish spectrum, not the pagan one, but were also clearly different. This gives us a fresh purchase on the question, why did they reshape the hope in that way?"
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Result 16 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #16 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:46am » | |
GT!
I very probably could go on all day with this, but with this one I'll call a halt! I think it shows though, that the Israelite Nation was authorized by Jehovah to fight the Wars that they fought. Not to say, they always followed their Law to letter, because they did not. They very probably involved themselves in Wars they should not have have been fighting, but at the moment can't recall any of those Wars, or where they are reported on in the scriptures. Shiner
10 "When thou drawest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that are found therein shall become tributary unto thee, and shall serve thee.
12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13 and when Jehovah thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which Jehovah thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these peoples, that Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth;
17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Jehovah thy God hath commanded thee;
18 that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so would ye sin against Jehovah your God." {Deuteronomy 20:1O-18 ASV}
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Result 17 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #17 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:28am » | |
GT!
I'm starting to get the idea, that if I was to continue with this search, I'd find all kinds of incidents the like of which you metioned! Was it not foretold, somewhere, that the Israelite Nation would fight these Wars to gain possession of the promised land? I'm not saying that for certain, but it seems I remember reading something to that effect, somewhere, at one time, in the past. Maybe you'll remember where that was, because right now, my faiiling memory is not up to the task! Shiner
1 "Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Edrei.
2 And Jehovah said unto me, Fear him not; for I have delivered him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, who dwelt at Heshbon.
3 So Jehovah our God delivered into our hand Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
4 And we took all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we took not from them; threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
5 All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates, and bars; besides the unwalled towns a great many.
6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones." {Deuteronomy 3:1-6 ASV}
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Result 18 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #18 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:05am » | |
GT!
I found the last one by accident, while searching for something else! Shiner
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Result 19 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #19 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:03am » | |
GT!
I found another incident the like of which you mentioned! Take a look at the following and see if this is what you was making reference to.
31 "And Jehovah said unto me, Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.
32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz.
33 And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining:
35 only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, with the spoil of the cities which we had taken." Deuteronomy 2:31-35 ASV}
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Result 20 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #20 on Dec 23, 2009, 7:21am » | |
GT!
Was the following incident the one you was making reference to?
If it was, you can see, they was authorized to do that wiping out!
4 'and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."
5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.' Ezekiel 9:4-6 NIV} Shiner
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Result 21 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #21 on Dec 23, 2009, 6:58am » | |
GT!
Which "Entire Village," are you here making reference to? I say that, because they may well have been under Jehovah's command to do that wiping out, at that time. I can't say that for certain, because I'm not certain, as to what you're reffering to. What did Paul say in Romans? "Love does not work evil to his neighbor, therefore love is the Laws fulfillment." "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Seems to me, that would bar making War with your neighbor, ever if he fires the first shot. "Return evil for for evil to no one!" As far as it depends upon you be at peace with your neighbor." It's a touch too early to supply Chapter and verse, but you know those scriptures anyway. Shiner
"First, I don't see wiping out an entire village as the Israelite at least claimed to do categorically different from a nuclear warhead."
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Result 22 of 100:
Result 23 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #23 on Dec 22, 2009, 6:04pm » | |
Dec 22, 2009, 5:50pm, shiner wrote:GT!
Everything today, is, as you say: "Special Revelation!" Without those Revelations from the Christ not me, not you, not anyone would learn a thing about the Bible. Read in Galatians 1:11,12 and Ephesians 3:3 where Paul received his teachings from. Throw in Revelation 1:1,2 where you are told John received his Revelation from. Note where Johns Revelation originated from. It was a chain reaction. First from Jehovah, then to the Christ, then to the angel, then to John and all the slaves. You and I today, grow in knowledge, because it is the Christ controlling the Holly Spirit, that teaches us all things. Jesus has enough knowledge now to get the job done with no problem. So, just who is guilty of this false dichotomy you speak of? No! I don't portend to be greater than our Lord, at all! He it is, is the one teaching me what I klnow now, and will further teach me as I persist at my studies. Do you ever do anything else besides pick arguements GT? |
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If you are growing as God gave us to grow you would be willing to read. This Jesus did and you do not. This Paul did and you do not. This Peter did and you do not.
This is why you don't know what false dichotomy means and continue to fall into that trap. Reading a book _can_ be an act of the Spirit.
You presume that the Spirit is bound by your will not to read and does as you bid. It is not.
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Result 24 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #24 on Dec 22, 2009, 5:59pm » | |
Again, this may shock, but how about a quote from (Anglican) Bishop NT Wright?
"Early Christian views about life after death, clearly belonged within the Jewish spectrum, not the pagan one, but were also clearly different. This gives us a fresh purchase on the question, why did they reshape the hope in that way?
Almost all early Christians known to us believed that their ultimate hope was the resurrection of the body. There is no spectrum such as in Judaism. Some in Corinth denied the future resurrection (1 Corinthians 15.12), but Paul put them straight; they were most likely reverting to pagan views, not opting for an over-realized Jewish eschatology. Two named individuals in 2 Timothy 2.18 say the resurrection has already happened, but they stand out by their oddity, and they too bear witness to the fact that mainstream early Christianity did indeed hope for resurrection, even if by the end of the first generation some were using that language in a new way, to refer simply to a new present identity or spiritual experience — marking the road to the gnostic views of, for instance, the Epistle to Rheginos.
This almost complete absence of a spectrum of belief itself demands explanation, but before we can offer one we must add two further points. First, the early Christian belief in resurrection had a much more precise shape and content than anything we find in Judaism. In early Christianity, obviously in Paul but not only there, resurrection will be an act of new creation, accomplished by the Holy Spirit, and the body which is to be is already planned by God. This will not be a simple return to the same sort of body as before; nor will it be an abandonment of embodiedness in order to enjoy a disembodied bliss. It will involve transformation, the gift of a new body with different properties. This is so engrained in earliest Christianity that it already affects teaching on other subjects, such as baptism (Romans 6) and ethics (Colossians 3).
Where did that idea come from? Not from any ancient paganism known to us; and not, or not straightforwardly, from any ancient Judaism. The best-known feature of resurrection in Daniel 12 is that the righteous will shine like stars; that, interestingly, is one thing the early Christians do not say about the hope of resurrection, except in one gospel passage (Matthew 13.43) not echoed elsewhere.6 The hope of resurrection is thus not only virtually universal in early Christianity; it is much more sharply focused than its Jewish equivalent."
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Result 25 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
shiner
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« Result #25 on Dec 22, 2009, 5:50pm » | |
GT!
Everything today, is, as you say: "Special Revelation!" Without those Revelations from the Christ not me, not you, not anyone would learn a thing about the Bible. Read in Galatians 1:11,12 and Ephesians 3:3 where Paul received his teachings from. Throw in Revelation 1:1,2 where you are told John received his Revelation from. Note where Johns Revelation originated from. It was a chain reaction. First from Jehovah, then to the Christ, then to the angel, then to John and all the slaves. You and I today, grow in knowledge, because it is the Christ controlling the Holly Spirit, that teaches us all things. Jesus has enough knowledge now to get the job done with no problem. So, just who is guilty of this false dichotomy you speak of? No! I don't portend to be greater than our Lord, at all! He it is, is the one teaching me what I klnow now, and will further teach me as I persist at my studies. Do you ever do anything else besides pick arguements GT?
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Result 26 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom? (Read 31 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #26 on Dec 22, 2009, 5:44pm » | |
Dec 22, 2009, 7:31am, shiner wrote:Bluestreak!
My purpose is very simple! Did you miss it? I was showing that the divine name could never possibly be lost! In order for that to happen the owner of it would, of necessity, have to forget it himself. Then, too, the Holy Spirit is the revealer of all of the truths in the Bible! One of those truths is the divine name!
I showed also, that those in this World who lack the Holy Spirit, would nit-pic every arguement put forward in defense of that great name, as you're doing now. You do that, because, as I said, as The Bible says, as the Christ, said, you lack the true teaching instrument, the Holy Spirit! Your loss Bluestreak! Your loss! Shiner |
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No one but you claims that it has been lost, and he _directly_ addressed your claims.
As I pointed out I read it in scholarly articles about once a week.
Blue addressed usage, for which you have no evidence.
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Result 27 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom? (Read 31 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to who
« Result #27 on Dec 22, 2009, 5:42pm » | |
First things first, you still haven't made it clear if you _know_ about the WT's insertion of Jehovah into the NT corpus. Please answer that question first as it will help form further conversation.
Dec 21, 2009, 5:18pm, shiner wrote:| I hear so many, today, trying to tell me that no one can know the divine name of God! They cringe at the name Jehovah, for some reason! |
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I've heard Jehovah, or the more common Yahweh, in many texts. In fact, I'd say I bump into it in my reading at least once a week outside of Bible citations. In addition there is no fear of the name. In fact in all my years of being a Witness from HS on the Divine Name was never a serious issue with anybody that I talked with in field service or out.
That being said much of the thrust of this post doesn't apply.
Quote:| Jesus himself, while walking this earth made his Fathers name known. |
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If you mean the Tetragrammaton there is no evidence for such an assertion. As Blue points out name in this context can be equivalent to "title" as the Jews were familiar with the "I AM".
Quote:| Who would step forward and tell us that, that, grand name was lost in the first Century? |
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No one but the Watchtower. The Jews were aware of it and we have records proving it. In fact, if you applied yourself to reading about the Jewish practice you would discover that a rather elaborate ritualism has developed around the Divine Name. That's why you should read before making claims.
What no one did was use it publicly. The record we have from Jesus supports this. Even the model prayer (the "Our Father") fails to use this address. Christianity has held that addressing the father by any other title would be as disrespectful as your children calling you "Earl".
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Result 28 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Story that's as old as time! (Read 28 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | A Story that's as old as time!
« Result #28 on Dec 22, 2009, 3:44pm » | |
A Story that's as old as time!
A story that's as old as time, it's yours to read, as it is, mine -
A Glorious King will come! Will reign! - There's no more grief!
There's no more pain! No one is crying! None sick! None dying!
No more is anyone, crippled, or lame! - You look around, what do
you see? Everyone is young again! - No Wheel-Chair's! No
Walker's! No Canes!- Everyone is healthy again! -
Who is this running at me their arms flung open wide, and
running at her side, tears streaming down their faces? Why! It's
Mom, and Dad, and these are tears of Joy, that fill their faces -
and your heart feels like it's released of all dread! For every word
of this story you read, is absolutely true! You're watching the
foretold resurrection of the dead, in a World all made an-knew -
Many stories have been told, that's true, and some are very old,
but this is the oldest story every told, for it is the greatest story
ever told! Written for me, and written for you! It is a story as old
as this World's time! Written, with all of us in mind!
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Result 29 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom? (Read 31 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #29 on Dec 22, 2009, 9:53am » | |
Shiner,
Quote:| My purpose is very simple! Did you miss it? I was showing that the divine name could never possibly be lost |
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I was agreeing with you that the Divine Name has not been lost! The Father's nature and relationship with us is well documented in scripture. I take issue with the manner in which it is used and the unscriptural argument that certain persons rely upon for the worthless manner in which they use it.
Quote:| I showed also, that those in this World who lack the Holy Spirit, would nit-pic every argument put forward in defense of that great name |
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It does not sound as though you are defending the Divine Name. It sounds as though you use this argument as a tool of discernment.
There is one defense of the Divine Name:
Exodus 20:7 (NWT)
" “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.
What is worthless? Who is worthy?
If you are going to disavow the Governing Body, then you should spend less time using the WT measuring stick! Spend less time worrying about whether or not his name is used, and more time being careful not to use it in a worthless manner. Spend less time worrying about the "end of this system of things" and more time worrying about whether you are a good steward of the gifts that you have been given. Spend less time talking about the "ruler of this world" and more time feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, tending to the sick.
We are here to SERVE one another, not to abase one another. It is in serving one another that we serve Him!
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Result 30 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Give this some thought! (Read 11 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Give this some thought!
« Result #30 on Dec 22, 2009, 8:29am » | |
Give this some thought!
What was on Jehovah's mind when he put the Man in the Garden of Eden? Was there a long list of Do's, and Don't's? There was only one simple Command, wasn't there? "But as for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad you must not eat from it, for in the Day you eat from it, you will posituvely die." {Genesis 2:16,17}
What did the Man, Adam, have before him? "Further Jehovah God planted a Garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the Man who he had formed. Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every Tree desirable to ones sight and good for food and also the Tree of Life in the middle of the Garden and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad." "And Jehovah God proceeded to take the Man and settle him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it." {Genesis 2:15}
So, Adam had some very good work given to him to do, didn't he? He was to extend that garden-like-park earth-wide, until this entire earth, was a paradise, like Eden! Populated by righteous perfect individuals, like himself; for that's what he was when he was first created, and sinless. A perfect human being; able to fill the earth with other perfect human beings exactly like himself.
Adam had much more than that lovely paradise like Park, didn't he? That Tree of Life represented, everlasting life in that paradise like Garden, conditional on obedience to his Creator, who wasn't really asking all that much in return, for what he was giving. One simple Command to obey in exchange for all that he had given the pair. In other words; 'you give me obedience, and I, in turn, will give you two, everlasting life, in paradise.' That of course wasn't stated in so many words, but that is what it came down to, wasn't it? Even more, with all that they was given, they also, on top of all of that, had God's blessing upon them, as noted here: "Further God Blessed them and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the face of the earth." {Genesis 1:28}
They had it all! It was all their's! For just one simple thing: Obedience! One word! While the Mosaic Law contained Ten Thousands words! Or 760 Laws and commandments. All brought about, because two people listened to satan the devil, who by his actions caused the death of all mankind.
We too, today, like the Pair in the Garden, can play right into satan's hands, by believing the lie, as told by most of the Religious Bodies on this earth today, in fashion of satan the devil whose wish is, that we all be dead, with no opportunity for everlasting life in this purposed paradise of Jehovah God. The devil knows his time now is getting very short, and he is vitally aware, that he is soon to be thrown into the abyss for the Thousand year period, after which, he will be cast into the lake of fire, and removed for all eternity. While Jehovah wishes life for all of us, the devil wishes for our deaths. As Jehovah never changes, so too, the devil never changes. One wishes us to gain life, the other death.
We can allow our pride to stand in our way, because, afterall, who wishes to admit that they have been led down the wrong path, perhaps for all of their lives. What is more important though, humbly admitting, that we have been misled, and stepping away from those doing the misleading, or remaining among them because of pride, and losing out on the opportunity for everlasting life on a paradise earth of God's making? Seems to me, the choice shouldn't really be all that hard to make, between life or death. {Revelation 12:12,17;20:1-3-7-10} {Matthew 25:41}
Am I really to believe, that the World of Mankind would miss out on this marvelous opportunity for life, offered by Jehovah, in favor of playing into the devils hands, and lose out on life as did Adam, as did his wife Eve, by playing into the hands of the devil, themselves? Why would anyone wish to follow that path of destruction, when everlasting life is set before them, on a beautiful paradise earth? {Psalms 37:10,11}
Tell me, that none of you wish to be there when this following scripture in Isaiah is fulfilled:
7"The whole earth is at rest and is quiet;
They break forth into shouts of joy." Isaiah 14:7 NASB}
How can we be assured that it will be fulfilled? By these following words:
10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." {Isaiah 55:10,11 NASB}
It has always been Jehovah's purpose, for this earth to be a paradise, with righteous perfect people living on it forever. According to Jehovah's own words through the pen of his Prophet Isaiah, that purpose will reach final fulfullment, without fail! Tell me, that you don't wish to be there, when they are!
Then, do as Jehovah commands you to do in Revelation 18:4: "Come out of her MY PEOPLE"... If you really are one of Jehovah's people, if you really want everlasting life, you WILL come out! Shiner!
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Result 31 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom? (Read 31 times) |
shiner
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« Result #31 on Dec 22, 2009, 7:31am » | |
Bluestreak!
My purpose is very simple! Did you miss it? I was showing that the divine name could never possibly be lost! In order for that to happen the owner of it would, of necessity, have to forget it himself. Then, too, the Holy Spirit is the revealer of all of the truths in the Bible! One of those truths is the divine name!
I showed also, that those in this World who lack the Holy Spirit, would nit-pic every arguement put forward in defense of that great name, as you're doing now. You do that, because, as I said, as The Bible says, as the Christ, said, you lack the true teaching instrument, the Holy Spirit! Your loss Bluestreak! Your loss! Shiner
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Result 32 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom? (Read 31 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #32 on Dec 21, 2009, 6:01pm » | |
Is Jesus truly referring to a name here...
...Or is he referring to the nature of the father?
I hear an argument about the reference to 'God' as a title rather than a name...yet:
Rev. 19
11 Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) "Faithful and True." He judges and wages war in righteousness. 12 His eyes were (like) a fiery flame, and on his head were many diadems. He had a name inscribed that no one knows except himself. 13 He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was called the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven followed him, mounted on white horses and wearing clean white linen. 15 Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod, and he himself will tread out in the wine press the wine of the fury and wrath of God the almighty.16 He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, "King of kings and Lord of lords."
...there are three references to names in this passage! One of them is referring to a name "no one knows except himself" and the other two refer to titles. Is "Word of God' a title or a name? It reflects the essence of who Christ is! Is "King of kings and Lord of lords' a title or a name? It also reflects the essence of who Christ is!
The Bible tells us about our relationship with the Father as we cry out to him "Abba, Father" (Rom. 8:15) Is "Abba, Father" a title or a name? It reflects the essence of who the Father is to us!
The Divine Name has not been so hidden that we do not sing "Allelu Jah!" or call him "Yahweh" or "Jehovah". Reserving the Divine Name for times of reverence, avoiding occasion to use that name in vain, or avoiding the use of it for our own personal political or religious purposes, is biblical.
Many times this argument has been made to edify those making it. To bring them a sense of righteousness! I believe that it is why the WTBTS uses this argument? (For this, and to pass judgment on others!) Are they using the Divine Name for their purposes or for HIS purpose? What is your purpose?
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Result 33 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom? (Read 31 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Could the divine name ever be lost? Is, to whom?
« Result #33 on Dec 21, 2009, 5:18pm » | |
Could the Divine Name ever be lost? If so, to whom?
I hear so many, today, trying to tell me that no one can know the divine name of God! They cringe at the name Jehovah, for some reason! Why might that be? Who is it that would have the divine name masked, covered, or hidden? Would that not be the one Paul called the 'god of this World?' Would he wish to share his position, with one much higher than himself? So rather than give all of their worship to him, he would have to share it with this one much higher than himself? He would fight those who defended the divine name to the death, in order to maintain his own high and lofty position. Just who is it that he would use, to try to cover and hide this grand name of God? {2 Corinthians 4:3,4}
We know with absolute certainty, that the name of God was not lost in the First Century, because Jesus himself, while walking this earth made his Fathers name known. He knew it! His Twelve Apotles knew it, all of his first Century followers knew it; and all of these, adored, and used, this grand name at every opportunity, making it known to all that they would teach! It would be first and foremost on their minds, because Jesus had taught them to pray: "Let your name be santified." Even more important, that name would have been called upon them. So they must have created quite a stir for themselvesa back in their day. Just as it does today! {John 17:6,26} {Matthew 6:9,1O}
Who would step forward and tell us that, that, grand name was lost in the first Century? They would have had to deal with the Christ for telling anyone that, for note his own following words:
6 "I have revealed Your name
to the men You gave Me from the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me,
and they have kept Your word." {John 17:6 HCSB}
26 "I made Your name known to them
and will make it known,
so the love You have loved Me with
may be in them and I may be in them." {John 17:26 HCSB}
From this we learn, that Jehovah specifically chose the ones to know his name. They belonged to him! He gave them to his Son, out of the World, not the World in general. They was keeping his word! Obviously, faithful men! Jesus made mention, that he would continually make his Fathers name known, which of course he did. How, though, would he continue to do that, after his ascension?
The way that he was able to do this, shows beyond any doubt, that it is impossible to lose the divine name, either then, or now; as I will go on to show! Before I do that, though, let me point out, that Jehovah knew well in advance, that there would be dreamers, trying to get others to forget his name, and he gives them permission to relate their dreams to one another, while at the same time, he tells those that belong to him, those he had given to his Son, to speak forth his word truthfully, which I will now do! {Jeremiah 23:27,28}
15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. {John 14:15--17NLT}
What this entire World needs to learn the truth of the Bible, it cannot receive, it isn't, as John said, 'Looking for him, and doesn't recognize him.' This is the main reason, they believe and teach that the divine name is lost; while the only thing lost is them. Notice though, it lives with, and is in, these ones Jehovah has given to his Son, OUT OF THE WORLD! They know him well, and recognize just who he is, and what he can do.; that is: "lead them into all truth." Now, does anyone suppose, that they could be led into ALL TRUTH and not know the divine name? Only these dreamers would suppose that! But it's only a dream! As this next scripture will clearly show:
26 "But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you." {John 14:26 NLT} Part of the EVERYTHING that Jesus had told them was the divine name, and, even though, it would be impossible for them to forget that, even if they ever did, the Holy Spirit would remind them again of just what that name was, and is today. Besides teaching them everything else to do with Jehovah's word, the Bible. Keep in mind, the Holy Spirit was to be with them forever, bringing it right down to our own day; so, While Some of us will know the divine name, and use it; others of this World held in satan's power, misled, and blinded by him, will not. They will have their dreams, that the divine name is quite lost, and will quibble about that name every chance they get, in an effort to get others to believe that, that name is lost and cannot be known. Shock City! Eh? Coming up! Tell that to the Holy Spirit, next time you're conversing with him. {1 John 5:19} {Revelation 12:9} {2 Corinthians 4:3,4}
27 "But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ." {1 John 2:27 NLT}
Reasonably, would the Holy Spirit teach us everything we need to know, and omit teaching us about the divine name, the one behind the Holy Spirit? I seriously doubt that, and so should any of you!
True! The divine name is lost to this World, but to those of us who have received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, that great name is as far away, as the end our tongues. Shiner
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Result 34 of 100:
Result 35 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What can I be when I grow up? (Read 14 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
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Karma: 10 | | Re: What can I be when I grow up?
« Result #35 on Dec 21, 2009, 4:16pm » | |
Dec 21, 2009, 4:04pm, bluestreak wrote:He is only 13. This is a recent development though. He only mentioned it last Friday. I am not sure whether to push it or not.
The weapon issue would be troublesome for him as he dreamed of the SWAT team.
One of my co-workers converted to JW and married a cradle JW. He has not stopped carrying his weapon. |
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I'm shocked. I don't think carry is allowed. Heck, I'd expect them to beat down my door right now if they knew I practiced with a .22LR target pistol (in a freak of fate I inherited it, and given my current status, decided I'd learn to use it).
Boxing and all martial arts for example are still disfellowshiping offenses. While I was an elder I took some fencing classes since I figured that was archaic enough that no one would bat an eyelash. I was wrong.
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Result 36 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What can I be when I grow up? (Read 14 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #36 on Dec 21, 2009, 4:04pm » | |
He is only 13. This is a recent development though. He only mentioned it last Friday. I am not sure whether to push it or not.
The weapon issue would be troublesome for him as he dreamed of the SWAT team.
One of my co-workers converted to JW and married a cradle JW. He has not stopped carrying his weapon.
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Result 37 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What can I be when I grow up? (Read 14 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: What can I be when I grow up?
« Result #37 on Dec 21, 2009, 3:37pm » | |
Dec 21, 2009, 2:04pm, bluestreak wrote:To preface this discussion (question)...My son, who is studying with my wife, has always had an interest in military service. He long held to the notion that defending her ability to believe as she wished was a noble cause.
Over the last three years my wife has clung to the premise that there is not a piece of dirt worth losing her son over. Hard to argue with that logic, yet she takes it a step further to the level of self defense being unjustified.
I have been in Law Enforcement longer than I have been married. Certainly longer than she has been a witness. My son often expressed an interest in law enforcement. He told me the other day that Witnesses were now allowed to be Police Officers.
I don't know if this is something that has changed? Did the WT teach against or forbid service as a Police Officer? Why would it have changed? I do, after-all, work for the 'government'?
Does anyone have any insight on this? |
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The short answer is that service in LE is not allowed where the carrying of a weapon is required. Some police departments allow officers to not carry (though they have to be trained). To that end I knew an Elder who was an officer and assigned to community outreach. Some local bodies would probably object (and strenuously) to the training requirement especially those not in California.
I always wanted to join the FBI (navy first...but I knew that would never happen) and was frustrated by the FBI carry requirement. I'm really too old now (the cut off for hires is 35 if I remember right and the process can take years).
Your wife's heart is in the right place as you note. Her job is to protect her offspring in a mother's way. Our job is to do the same in a father's way; which often means teaching them how to protect themselves.
Has he signed up for any of the branches cadet corps? Evidently the FBI has local outreach programs where they do "one day" training sessions that he might be interested in. If you work in LE now you might be able to get him involved in one of the sessions. I'm sure he'd love it.
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Result 38 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What can I be when I grow up? (Read 14 times) |
bluestreak
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Karma: 3 | | What can I be when I grow up?
« Result #38 on Dec 21, 2009, 2:04pm » | |
To preface this discussion (question)...My son, who is studying with my wife, has always had an interest in military service. He long held to the notion that defending her ability to believe as she wished was a noble cause.
Over the last three years my wife has clung to the premise that there is not a piece of dirt worth losing her son over. Hard to argue with that logic, yet she takes it a step further to the level of self defense being unjustified.
I have been in Law Enforcement longer than I have been married. Certainly longer than she has been a witness. My son often expressed an interest in law enforcement. He told me the other day that Witnesses were now allowed to be Police Officers.
I don't know if this is something that has changed? Did the WT teach against or forbid service as a Police Officer? Why would it have changed? I do, after-all, work for the 'government'?
Does anyone have any insight on this?
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Result 39 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Converting a JW (Read 114 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #39 on Dec 21, 2009, 12:49pm » | |
Dec 21, 2009, 12:23pm, bluestreak wrote:
I do find myself at odds desiring the ex-communication of politicians that support abortion while claiming to be Catholic.
It gets under my skin to see them processing to Communion when I cannot. |
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While I realize it is a theological mine field, I would suggest drawing comfort from the imprecatory psalms (Lewis in particular had a problem with them; this is just one of those cases where Lewis was wrong  ).
From Psalm 58
6 O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
7 Let them vanish like water that runs away;
when he aims his arrows, let them be blunted.
8 Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime,
like the stillborn child who never sees the sun.
9 Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns,
whether green or ablaze, may he ssweep them away!3
10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
surely there is a God who judges on earth.”
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Result 40 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Here's a Goodie!
« Result #40 on Dec 21, 2009, 12:40pm » | |
Dec 21, 2009, 7:59am, shiner wrote:GT!
Tell me GT! With the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, why would anyone need to read up on, as you say; Modalism? Is this knowledge of Modalism going to teach me more than the Holy Spirit can? |
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False dichotomy again. You're assuming that the Spirit doesn't work through normal agency and that everything is special revelation. If so then we would all be born with exactly the knowledge that we needed. Instead, we learn, we read, and we discuss. Even Jesus in His human nature, "grew in knowledge".
Read about modalism because the Spirit intends us to be human. You are portending to be greater than our Lord.
I'll avoid the continuation of the martyr complex in the rest of the post.
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Result 41 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: You don'tsuppose he meant our generation do you? (Read 21 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: You don'tsuppose he meant our generation do yo
« Result #41 on Dec 21, 2009, 12:37pm » | |
Dec 20, 2009, 8:00pm, shiner wrote:GT!
I didn't give you any Watchtower Prophecy GT! I gave you the words of Jesus! I never use any Watchtower material! I use the Bible and my Bible Concordance1 That's all I have in my room now; nothing more than that. Is the Revelation account Watchtower Prophecy, in your mind as well? Read Revelation 18:24 which harmonizes perfectly with what I gave you in Matthew 23! From that you'll learn he meant our generation! Would be the one to get the AX!
Good idea though to read both Chapters of Revelation 17 and 18 complete! |
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The books may not be there but the ideas are in your head. No, none of the scriptures refers to a specific time. That is why we are to "keep on the watch". Peter and the apostles kept on the watch two thousand years ago. I'll do the same.
Which means I'll likely die an old man which is the heart of the matter. I understand its a scary thought, and one that, frankly, I'm still processing.
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Result 42 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Converting a JW (Read 114 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #42 on Dec 21, 2009, 12:23pm » | |
GK,
Thanks for the History lesson.
I do find myself at odds desiring the ex-communication of politicians that support abortion while claiming to be Catholic.
It gets under my skin to see them processing to Communion when I cannot.
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Result 43 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #43 on Dec 21, 2009, 12:09pm » | |
Dec 19, 2009, 4:54pm, shiner wrote:Bliestreak!
If Jesus is reconized as God himself, then ,mind telling me who owned, the voice that came from the heavens at the Baptism of Jesus, that said: "This is my Son I have approved him." "Listen to him!" Be nice to know that! |
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Shiner
I am amazed that you address the Baptism of Christ. This is a beautiful scripture where Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all present and manifest! One of the most Trinitarian scriptures of the Bible!
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Result 44 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #44 on Dec 21, 2009, 11:36am » | |
John 5
22 Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son,
John 8
16 And even if I should judge, my judgment is valid, because I am not alone, but it is I and the Father who sent me.
Acts 10
42 He commissioned us to preach to the people and testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone who believes in him will receive forgiveness of sins through his name."
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: 2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
Revelations 19
11 Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) "Faithful and True." He judges and wages war in righteousness. 12 His eyes were (like) a fiery flame, and on his head were many diadems. He had a name inscribed that no one knows except himself. 13 He wore a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was called the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven followed him, mounted on white horses and wearing clean white linen. 15 Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod, and he himself will tread out in the wine press 10 the wine of the fury and wrath of God the almighty.16 He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, "King of kings and Lord of lords."
Who did Christ address when he said:
John 14
26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
Where do the scriptures indicate that Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, or even Solomon were taught "all things"? Christ is revealed in the Old Testament, yet everything was not apparent at the time.
1 Cor. 10
1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, 2 and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 All ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.
Paul finally reveals one of Christ's roles in the Old Testament. Even Moses was unaware.
GK is correct. While your target is Trinitarianism, you are arguing against the tenets of Modalism. You are losing credibility by not being able to differentiate the two. I know from my bride, the importance that JW's place on 'accurate knowledge'. He is simply suggesting that you learn more of both of these beliefs.
We are not here to defend modalism, for we do not hold that to be true. When you use the tenets of modalism to attack Trinitarianism, we can only allude to the absurdity of the position.
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Result 45 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: Here's a Goodie!
« Result #45 on Dec 21, 2009, 7:59am » | |
GT!
Tell me GT! With the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, why would anyone need to read up on, as you say; Modalism? Is this knowledge of Modalism going to teach me more than the Holy Spirit can? That would be a stretch of the imagination, would it not? By the way, in the first Century they accused Paul of being a chatterer. A teacher of new and strange doctrines. Has a very familiar ring to it, doesn't it? Oh! You went a step ahead of them though. I don't think they worked in the word petulent. Was the Christ crazy? Was the Twelve Apostles too? What about all of his first Century followers? I know! They was all crazy too! Right? Ha! Ha! Shiner
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Result 46 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: You don'tsuppose he meant our generation do you? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: You don'tsuppose he meant our generation do yo
« Result #46 on Dec 20, 2009, 8:00pm » | |
GT!
I didn't give you any Watchtower Prophecy GT! I gave you the words of Jesus! I never use any Watchtower material! I use the Bible and my Bible Concordance1 That's all I have in my room now; nothing more than that. Is the Revelation account Watchtower Prophecy, in your mind as well? Read Revelation 18:24 which harmonizes perfectly with what I gave you in Matthew 23! From that you'll learn he meant our generation! Would be the one to get the AX!
Good idea though to read both Chapters of Revelation 17 and 18 complete!
As far as it being one hundred thousand generations! Don't delude yourself GT! We could RIGHT NOW be right smack on the doorstep, and no joke about that ! You are correct! Wait patiently GT! Because, one way or the other, it is going to happen very suddenly. Then! Wham-Bam- Thank you Mam! Shiner
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Result 47 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #47 on Dec 20, 2009, 6:45pm » | |
Dec 20, 2009, 4:46pm, shiner wrote:Here's a Goodie!
Why, was the Trinity Doctrine to be true, didn't, Abraham convey the words: "Shall not the Judge's of all the earth do right?"
Why did he make reference to only one Judge? Was there have to have been three judge's, wouldn't he have told us, that there was three? Why did he hold to only ONE, if there was, in reality, three? Why did he speak, as if, there was only ONE, if there was three? In these following words of his?
25 "That be far from thee {YOU} to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: {YOU} shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" {Genesis 18:25 ASV} Not even any hint of three in Abraham's words is there? {Genesis 18:25 ASV}
In similar fashion with the words of Isaiah the Prophet! Why did he, also, convey the idea, that there was only ONE Judge? ONE Lawgiver, One King?
22 "For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Lawgiver, Jehovah is our King; he will save us." {Isaiah 33:22 ASV}
He didn't say, Jehovah is our Judge's, our Lawgiver's, our King's, did he? He too, was holding to only ONE GOD, and speaking about only one, not three, as anyone can see!
I'm wondering if these two faithful men, knew something about Jehovah, that these Trinitarian's have missed completely? Could very well be, couldn't it? Shiner
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You're being petulant. You still haven't read about modalism. When you do that, I'll help you through these issues. You can be an honest Arian and approach the argument as well as Arius did (and I think Athanasius went too far in dealing with him for all of the right reasons) or you can chatter about something you haven't approached with the light of reason.
Remember, I stayed Arian for many years after I left the Society. What I didn't do was assume that two thousand years of thinkers were just crazy.
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Result 48 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: You don'tsuppose he meant our generation do you? (Read 21 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #48 on Dec 20, 2009, 6:42pm » | |
Dec 20, 2009, 10:35am, shiner wrote:| You don't suppose, he meant our generation, do you? |
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In as much as you understand that as a fulfillment of WT prophecy, no. In as much that all men from the time of Jesus onward should be expectant of his return until he _does_ return, yes.
I and a hundred thousand generations after me may have to wait patiently. I hope not, but we should wait willingly just the same.
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Result 49 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: What Religious Christendom is not aware of?
« Result #49 on Dec 20, 2009, 6:40pm » | |
Dec 20, 2009, 7:44am, shiner wrote:GT!
Just thinking! If Abels Blood was crying out from the ground, how loud do you think that cry is about now? Genesis 4:10 A deafening roar, wouldn't you think? Shiner |
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While you may be surprised I would totally agree. To that end though we have a duty towards those that are oppressed that may include violent action. If I had seen Cain laying in wait for his brother I should take action to defeat him, even if that means his death or mine.
Nation-states are under the same responsibility. Christians and States both mismanage that responsibility but that does not absolve them from it.
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Result 50 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #50 on Dec 20, 2009, 6:38pm » | |
I want to note that this is the first time you've started to engage in conversation. However, I'm going to re-ask many of my questions because I don't think you addressed them.
Dec 19, 2009, 8:58pm, shiner wrote:
GT!
If War is so just! How about Nuclear War? Chemical Warfare? Biological War fare? It's headed in that direction right now. Will that be a just War when the entire Planet is threatened with extinction? |
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First, I don't see wiping out an entire village as the Israelite at least claimed to do categorically different from a nuclear warhead.
As to extinction, if we go so far as to destroy ourselves we will have done so according to God's plan. I'm not willing to worry about something that only God can control. While saying that, I think it is prudent to approach foreign policy...well...prudently.
Quote:| I wasn't discussing what went on in ancient times. King David fought all of Jehovah's Wars. You could call those just Wars because King David was under the command of Jehovah, to fight those Wars. |
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Not all of them. Remember he retired for a while to work for the Phoenician (Philistine) kings for which he had not direct divine warrant. This is evidently where he acquired some of his core "mighty men".
Quote:| Christendom was not under command of Jehovah! They violated his commands by fighting them! Can you find anywhere in the Christian Greek scriptures, where Jesus authorized his disciples to carry out wars similar to what Religious Christendom has fought? |
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Directly? No. The closest that we come is in Romans. However, you would be just as hard pressed to find where he said we weren't to engage in any war.
Also, you claim a direct mandate. Remember that the Babylonian mandate wasn't recognized until _after_ the fact. I'm fairly convinced that at the end of time we'll learn that the Allies (who avoided battle until it practically arrived at their doorstep) where doing the right thing.
Quote:| Can you find a record of any kind, implicating his disciples in mass slaughters, the like of what Religious Christedom has fought? |
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Christ is the Lord of all the Holy, both now and before. To that end, I can answer, "yes," because the Israelites were ordered into mass slaughter on several occasions.
Quote:| You are, at some point it time, either going to hear of a Nuclear Bomb being dropped on some Nation, if its not the very Nation you are living in right now! How are you going to feel about your idea of a just War, then, was that to occur, and there's every possibility, it could happen? You yourself are quite aware of that, are you not? |
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I'll feel sad that as fallen mankind we have to engage in such petty rivalry and pray, as I do now, for the end of history.
Quote:| What you are doing GT, is looking for excuses to pardon what went on in World War 1&2 but that aint going to cut it, when push comes to shove, and Religious Christendom has to stand before Jehovah and explain to him, what they have done, in their Blood-Spilling Wars. |
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I do not excuse either, what I point out is that the Divine may have been directly at work and that the reaction to Soviet and Nazi aggression was well within bounds. You also keep on bringing up "religious" involvement.
So I ask again, are you aware that the Nazi's rejected Christian belief as well as the Soviets? You're on much firmer ground in WWI than you are in II.
Quote:| What would you personally have to say to him GT? Would you say to him, what you said to me? In an effort to excuse the Conduct of the Warring Christian's of our earth? I'd like to be there to listen in on that one, believer me, I surely would! Who knows, just maybe I might be! Shiner |
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I would say the exact same thing, anything less would be duplicitous. I trust in His mercy and that he will appreciate the limits of my reason.
Now, to the questions you haven't answered in this thread:
1.) You still haven't addressed why the Jews under Egyptian and Babylonian command serving in all Jewish units in those armies never came under condemnation in the Bible.
2.) Whether the Levitcal priests marching before the warbands of Israel (cf. Joshua 6:9-11) were wrong?
3.) What about when Israel fought against their brothers Benjamin and exterminated almost all the men from that tribe (cf. Judges 20-21)?
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Result 51 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Here's a Goodie! (Read 29 times) |
shiner
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« Result #51 on Dec 20, 2009, 4:46pm » | |
Here's a Goodie!
Why, was the Trinity Doctrine to be true, didn't, Abraham convey the words: "Shall not the Judge's of all the earth do right?"
Why did he make reference to only one Judge? Was there have to have been three judge's, wouldn't he have told us, that there was three? Why did he hold to only ONE, if there was, in reality, three? Why did he speak, as if, there was only ONE, if there was three? In these following words of his?
25 "That be far from thee {YOU} to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: {YOU} shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" {Genesis 18:25 ASV} Not even any hint of three in Abraham's words is there? {Genesis 18:25 ASV}
In similar fashion with the words of Isaiah the Prophet! Why did he, also, convey the idea, that there was only ONE Judge? ONE Lawgiver, One King?
22 "For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Lawgiver, Jehovah is our King; he will save us." {Isaiah 33:22 ASV}
He didn't say, Jehovah is our Judge's, our Lawgiver's, our King's, did he? He too, was holding to only ONE GOD, and speaking about only one, not three, as anyone can see!
I'm wondering if these two faithful men, knew something about Jehovah, that these Trinitarian's have missed completely? Could very well be, couldn't it? Shiner
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Result 52 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: You don'tsuppose he meant our generation do you? (Read 21 times) |
shiner
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« Result #52 on Dec 20, 2009, 10:35am » | |
You don't suppose, he meant our generation, do you?
13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in to do so.
14[a]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you swallow up widows' houses and for a pretense to cover it up make long prayers; therefore you will receive the greater condemnation and the heavier sentence.
15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes one [a proselyte], you make him doubly as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as you are.
16Woe to you, blind guides, who say, If anyone swears by the [b]sanctuary of the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the [c]sanctuary, he is a debtor [bound by his oath].
17You blind fools! For which is greater: the gold, or the [d]sanctuary of the temple that has made the gold sacred?(A)
18You say too, Whoever swears by the altar is not duty bound; but whoever swears by the offering on the altar, his oath is binding.
19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar which makes the gift sacred?
20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21And he who swears by the [e]sanctuary of the temple swears by it and by Him Who dwells in it. [I Kings 8:13; Ps. 26:8.]
22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by Him Who sits upon it.
23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you give a tenth of your mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected and omitted the weightier (more important) matters of the Law--right and justice and mercy and fidelity. These you ought [particularly] to have done, without neglecting the others.
24You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a [f]camel!(B)
25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion (prey, spoil, plunder) and grasping self-indulgence.
26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.
27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men's bones and everything impure.
28Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.(C)
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,
30Saying, If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have aided them in shedding the blood of the prophets.
31Thus you are testifying against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins to the brim [so [g]that nothing may be wanting to a full measure].
33You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the [h]penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna)?
34Because of this, take notice: I am sending you prophets and wise men (interpreters and teachers) and scribes (men learned in the Mosaic Law and the Prophets); some of them you will kill, even crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue and persecute from town to town,
35So that upon your heads may come all the blood of the righteous ([i]those who correspond to the divine standard of right) shed on earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar [of burnt offering].(D)
36Truly I declare to you, all these [[j]evil, calamitous times] will come upon THIS generation." [II Chron. 36:15, 16.] {Matthew 23:13--36 AB}
Not my words this trip! Shiner
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Result 53 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #53 on Dec 20, 2009, 7:44am » | |
GT!
Just thinking! If Abels Blood was crying out from the ground, how loud do you think that cry is about now? Genesis 4:10 A deafening roar, wouldn't you think? Shiner
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Result 54 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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« Result #54 on Dec 19, 2009, 8:58pm » | |
Dec 19, 2009, 6:11pm, gkchesterton wrote:
Dec 19, 2009, 4:56pm, shiner wrote:| Actually, what they are not aware of, would be funny, if it wasn't so sad. They are unaware of so much, one would wonder, why in heavens name they refer to themselves as 'the one true Religion.' |
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First, consider that one of the titles of God is, "Lord of Hosts." The Witnesses rightly often render this as, "Jehovah of Armies." War, if its aims are just, is not an evil in and of itself. This is why Cyrus, through his violent conquest was depicted in the OT as an agent of God (cf. Isaiah 44:28).
Second, you failed to address previously why the Jews under Egyptian and Babylonian command serving in all Jewish units in those armies never came under condemnation in the Bible.
How do you know that God didn't give them that victory? Would the brutal oppression of all Asia and the slaughter of the Jews and Poles have made you happier? This is a question that you still haven't answered.
And the Levitcal priests were to march before the warbands of Israel (cf. Joshua 6:9-11). Was that wrong?
What about when Israel fount against their brothers Benjamin and exterminated almost all the men from that tribe (cf. Judges 20-21)?
The same Prince of Peace that has a sword protruding from his mouth? Peace does not equate to pacifism.
Quote:
Remember that this was prior to Jesus execution. Peter had no right to intervene to prevent the soldiers taking him. Also remember that earlier Jesus had armed his disciples:
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
Luke 22:35-37
--SNIP A BUNCH OF REVELATION THAT IS QUOTED USING WITNESS THEOLOGY--
Now, answer our questions since we've answered yours. |
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GT!
If War is so just! How about Nuclear War? Chemical Warfare? Biological War fare? It's headed in that direction right now. Will that be a just War when the entire Planet is threatened with extinction? I wasn't discussing what went on in ancient times. King David fought all of Jehovah's Wars. You could call those just Wars because King David was under the command of Jehovah, to fight those Wars. Christendom was not under command of Jehovah! They violated his commands by fighting them! Can you find anywhere in the Christian Greek scriptures, where Jesus authorized his disciples to carry out wars similar to what Religious Christendom has fought? Can you find a record of any kind, implicating his disciples in mass slaughters, the like of what Religious Christedom has fought? You are, at some point it time, either going to hear of a Nuclear Bomb being dropped on some Nation, if its not the very Nation you are living in right now! How are you going to feel about your idea of a just War, then, was that to occur, and there's every possibility, it could happen? You yourself are quite aware of that, are you not?
What you are doing GT, is looking for excuses to pardon what went on in World War 1&2 but that aint going to cut it, when push comes to shove, and Religious Christendom has to stand before Jehovah and explain to him, what they have done, in their Blood-Spilling Wars. What would you personally have to say to him GT? Would you say to him, what you said to me? In an effort to excuse the Conduct of the Warring Christian's of our earth? I'd like to be there to listen in on that one, believer me, I surely would! Who knows, just maybe I might be! Shiner
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Result 55 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: What Religious Christendom is not aware of?
« Result #55 on Dec 19, 2009, 6:11pm » | |
Dec 19, 2009, 4:56pm, shiner wrote:| Actually, what they are not aware of, would be funny, if it wasn't so sad. They are unaware of so much, one would wonder, why in heavens name they refer to themselves as 'the one true Religion.' |
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First, consider that one of the titles of God is, "Lord of Hosts." The Witnesses rightly often render this as, "Jehovah of Armies." War, if its aims are just, is not an evil in and of itself. This is why Cyrus, through his violent conquest was depicted in the OT as an agent of God (cf. Isaiah 44:28).
Second, you failed to address previously why the Jews under Egyptian and Babylonian command serving in all Jewish units in those armies never came under condemnation in the Bible.
Quote:| While making claim that they was followers of the "Prince of Peace," in two of the bloodiest World Wars, of our Century they have slaughtered over 100 Million in our Century alone! Not to leave out the two Japanese Cities that was literally obliterated by these, Oh, so peaceful followers of the Prince of Peace. |
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How do you know that God didn't give them that victory? Would the brutal oppression of all Asia and the slaughter of the Jews and Poles have made you happier? This is a question that you still haven't answered.
Quote:| And, of course, they was the true Christian's! God help us, was that ever to be true! Yes! God help us! |
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And the Levitcal priests were to march before the warbands of Israel (cf. Joshua 6:9-11). Was that wrong?
What about when Israel fount against their brothers Benjamin and exterminated almost all the men from that tribe (cf. Judges 20-21)?
Quote:| Quite clearly, there was something obviously wrong with the mind-sets of these so-called followers of the Prince of Peace! |
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The same Prince of Peace that has a sword protruding from his mouth? Peace does not equate to pacifism.
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Remember that this was prior to Jesus execution. Peter had no right to intervene to prevent the soldiers taking him. Also remember that earlier Jesus had armed his disciples:
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
Luke 22:35-37
--SNIP A BUNCH OF REVELATION THAT IS QUOTED USING WITNESS THEOLOGY--
Now, answer our questions since we've answered yours.
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Result 56 of 100:
|  Author | Announcement: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity (Read 1,877 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #56 on Dec 19, 2009, 6:10pm » | |
Dec 19, 2009, 6:07pm, shiner wrote:onpatmos!
Who was it that said: "If he called 'god's' those of whom the word of God came, and yet the scriptures cannot be anulled, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the World, 'You blaspheme,' because I said I am God's Son?" Methinks you'd best argue it out with the one, who I feel very certain knew who he was! And he said, he was God's Son! Or do you know something that the Son of God didn't know about hinmself? if you do, you'd best be informing him about it, don't you think, onpatmos? {John 10:35,36} Shiner |
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You didn't answer the question or address his point, are you aware of the insertions?
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Result 57 of 100:
| | Author | Announcement: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity (Read 1,877 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity
« Result #57 on Dec 19, 2009, 6:07pm » | |
onpatmos!
Who was it that said: "If he called 'god's' those of whom the word of God came, and yet the scriptures cannot be anulled, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the World, 'You blaspheme,' because I said I am God's Son?" Methinks you'd best argue it out with the one, who I feel very certain knew who he was! And he said, he was God's Son! Or do you know something that the Son of God didn't know about hinmself? if you do, you'd best be informing him about it, don't you think, onpatmos? {John 10:35,36} Shiner
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Result 58 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition!
« Result #58 on Dec 19, 2009, 5:49pm » | |
[quote author=onpatmos board=general thread=388 post=3025 time=1261253828]
Quote:[size=2]
The NWT inserts "Jehovah" 237 times into the New Testament (about 225 times for the Greek kyrios and another 12 or so times for theos) without any basis in the ancient Greek texts. On one hand, I think it's commendable that you are proposing a "solution" other than the one in the NWT. |
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Good catch OnPatmos, I missed that. I've been operating under the assumption that Shiner is aware of the insertions of YHWH into the NT that the Witnesses did. Maybe I was making a horrible mistake. Are you aware of that Shiner?
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Result 59 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition!
« Result #59 on Dec 19, 2009, 5:46pm » | |
Dec 19, 2009, 4:54pm, shiner wrote:Bliestreak!
If Jesus is reconized as God himself, then ,mind telling me who owned, the voice that came from the heavens at the Baptism of Jesus, that said: "This is my Son I have approved him." "Listen to him!" Be nice to know that! |
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We've attempted to tell you, the Father. You keep on attacking modalism and won't bother to look it up. Please do before lecturing us. Learn humility.
Quote:| Hey! Maybe we got two God's of the Hebrew scriptures not just ONE GOD, As we are told so many times throughout the Hebrew Writings. |
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A Trinitarian acknowledges just one God.
Quote:| Then, too, why, when Jesus was instructing them all on how to pray, did he say: "Let YOUR NAME BE SANCTIFIED! LET YOUR WILL BE DONE! Why YOUR, if he was GOD? Why not, let MY NAME BE SANTIFIED! LET MY WILL BE DONE! Didn't say that did he me Bucko? Wonder why he didn't? Shiner |
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What's with the Bucko? Why do you insist on being uncivil. There are two possible explanations for your question:
1.) This is an example prayer offered for instruction
2.) Jesus communicating with the Father through prayer does not violate Trinitarian principles.
Also, its surprising that he doesn't use YHWH here despite your protestations of its importance.
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Result 60 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: What Religious Christendom is not aware of? (Read 44 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | What Religious Christendom is not aware of?
« Result #60 on Dec 19, 2009, 4:56pm » | |
What Religious Christendom is not aware of!
Actually, what they are not aware of, would be funny, if it wasn't so sad. They are unaware of so much, one would wonder, why in heavens name they refer to themselves as 'the one true Religion.'
Considering their War-Like attitudes, and the human slaughter that has gone on among them, in just our Century alone, is enough to make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Putting it very mildly, of course.
While making claim that they was followers of the "Prince of Peace," in two of the bloodiest World Wars, of our Century they have slaughtered over 100 Million in our Century alone! Not to leave out the two Japanese Cities that was literally obliterated by these, Oh, so peaceful followers of the Prince of Peace.
History attests to the fact, that the Religious Leaders of Christendom's mainline Churches, have put their hands on and Blessed, the Troop's, the weapons for slaughter, their Atom Bombs, their flame-throwers, their hand-grenaides,their rocket launchers, their bayonettes, their Bomber's, and Jet Aircraft, and any other viscious weaponry you can imagine in your mind; all the while, professing to being followers of the Prince of Peace! Catholic killing Catholic, Protestant killing Protestant, and both killing each other, while all of the other Religious Leaders joined in and followed suit, killing off one an other, like flies in a dung heap. And, of course, they was the true Christian's! God help us, was that ever to be true! Yes! God help us!
I remember a little story I read one time, about Two Soldiers walking through one of the War - torn lands. One of them was reading a sign Board, that said: 'Fight! For God is on our side in this Battle." The one turned to the other, and said : "That's funny, I thought he was on our side." The whole truth of the matter, though, is, he wasn't on either side!
Quite clearly, there was something obviously wrong with the mind-sets of these so-called followers of the Prince of Peace! What was that?They didn't know, follow, or appreciate, the teachings of this Prince, that they claimed to follow. The one that had told them, 'to put your sword down, those that live by the sword, will die by the sword.' Die they did! To the tune of 100 Million, and that, by this time, is a very conservative estimate, because those slaughters have been going on ever since the year 1914; right down until this very moment in time. They are dying every day, becasuse they refuse to follow the Command that Jesus gave, to put their weapons down. Those slaughters will continue until Jehovah, through his King Son, during the War of the great day of God the Almighty, at Armageddon, makes them, put them down. {Matthew 26:52} {Revelation 16:14-16}
Wouldn't you just know it! The demons are the ones behind, these slaughters, as is brought out in verses 13,14 of Revelation Chapter 16. Showing that the mind-sets of these so-called followers of the Prince of Peace, are under control of satan and his demons. Not under the control of the Prince of Peace at all as one would expect them to be, in lieu of their false claim to being followers of the Prince of Peace.
Did not John tell us ahead of time, that this whole world was in the power of the wicked one? {1 John 5:19} Didn't he also tell us, that satan was misleading the entire inhabited earth? {Revelation 12:9} Didn't Paul tell us, that satan has blinded the minds of this World, so that they could not see the illumination of
the glorious Good News about the Christ? {2 Corinthians 4:3,4} Yes! They did all of that! Does that not explain their war-like attitudes, and why these slaughters have been carried out?
Showing very clearly, that followers of the Prince of Peace, they have definitely not been, but, rather, followers of satan the devil, worshipping in pretense the Prince of Peace, but in actuality giving their worship to satan the devil, who has locked them all into their War-Like mind-sets that they possess. Blinding them all, to the teachings of the Christ, of which, if they could receive, was they to actually be followers of this peaceful Christ they would all be at peace. Not being his followers, they will never know any peace! Under their condition that would be impossible to achieve. Totally, impossible!
Now, we know, that the Kings of the Earth's Armies are made up out of the Christian's of this World, and at some point in time; noteably Armageddon, these false Christian's will be brought out into the open and exposed for what they really are, for all of them will be gathered together to wage war, with the one they claimed to follow! This is when, they will all meet their doom, as John shows us in his account in the Revelation. {Revelation 19:17--21}
Is Relgious Christendom aware of all of this? Probably not, but they will be, when it all occurs, and wipes out their false Religious empire! Then the true followers of the Prince of Peace, will take the pre-eminent postions, and why not? Have they all not been relegated to the very lowest position for many years now? More likely, many Centuries?Time for them, to be elevated to the position that is rightfully theirs, is it not? I would say, that it is!
They have been low man on the Totem-Pole long enough! While others have usurped the seat that was rightfully theirs. So, move over Religious Christendom, you're about to lose your seats! When it does occur, then you'll be fully aware of all the things that you should have been aware of, ever since you all first took office! But too late! Much too late! Shiner
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Result 61 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
shiner
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« Result #61 on Dec 19, 2009, 4:54pm » | |
Bliestreak!
If Jesus is reconized as God himself, then ,mind telling me who owned, the voice that came from the heavens at the Baptism of Jesus, that said: "This is my Son I have approved him." "Listen to him!" Be nice to know that! Hey! Maybe we got two God's of the Hebrew scriptures not just ONE GOD, As we are told so many times throughout the Hebrew Writings. Then, too, why, when Jesus was instructing them all on how to pray, did he say: "Let YOUR NAME BE SANCTIFIED! LET YOUR WILL BE DONE! Why YOUR, if he was GOD? Why not, let MY NAME BE SANTIFIED! LET MY WILL BE DONE! Didn't say that did he me Bucko? Wonder why he didn't? Shiner
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Result 62 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
onpatmos
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« Result #62 on Dec 19, 2009, 3:17pm » | |
Quote:| One notices in both of these scriptures, in Romans and Corinthians the word lord is rendered in lower case letters, while they should not be, because both are obviously talking about Jehovah, and should more accurately be rendered LORD, All capititalized; showing that the true God is meant, not the Christ, who is also titled lord, but the Christ title should more properly be rendered in the lower case letters. |
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The NWT inserts "Jehovah" 237 times into the New Testament (about 225 times for the Greek kyrios and another 12 or so times for theos) without any basis in the ancient Greek texts. On one hand, I think it's commendable that you are proposing a "solution" other than the one in the NWT.
Lately I've come to believe that the usage of the word "Lord" (Greek - kyrios) in the New Testament - as it is accurately translated from the ancient Greek manuscripts available (not what the NWT does) - presents a real problem for anti Trinitarianism.
While I think it's commendable that this post doesn't opt for the NWT approach, and although I am far from being a Bible translator, I suggest that it's still off. The words in Greek do not have the distinctions that you suggest making. The word "Lord" is used here in the New Testament for God the Father, here for Jesus, and at times in ways so that it can't be distinguished.
It is also true that Old Testament verses that refer to YHWH are quoted and applied to Jesus in the New Testament. See here: http://www.catholicxjw.com/JesusYahweh.html
The Catholic Church does not have a problem with the way the word "Lord" is used in the New Testament, and does not, as far as I know, propose making distinctions in translating kyrios out of a need to make it conform to their doctrine:
In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the ineffable Hebrew name YHWH, by which God revealed himself to Moses,59 is rendered as Kyrios, "Lord". From then on, "Lord" becomes the more usual name by which to indicate the divinity of Israel's God. The New Testament uses this full sense of the title "Lord" both for the Father and - what is new - for Jesus, who is thereby recognized as God Himself.60 (Catechism of the Catholic Church #446)
Footnote 59 Cf. Ex 3:14.
Footnote 60 Cf. 1 Cor 2:8.
For support for this statement out of the Catechism, that the "full sense" of the title "Lord" is used for Jesus, I suggest a study of the link I gave above.
This website is also very informative:
http://tetragrammaton.org/
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Result 63 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: worship in spirit and truth- Applies to whom (Read 11 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
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Karma: 10 | | Re: worship in spirit and truth- Applies to whom
« Result #63 on Dec 19, 2009, 12:50pm » | |
Dec 19, 2009, 9:50am, shiner wrote:
In John 4:7-29 we learn, that it is, not we, that decide just how we'll worship Jehovah; he has made that descision for himself, he decides how his worshippers will worship him, and it's either his narrow way, or broad the highway! We do not follow the way of this Worlds worship, for that is not Jehovah's way! It is the devils way! |
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Agreed in specifics if not in principle.
Quote:| We know from the account in Luke 4:5-8 that all the Kingdoms of the earth belonged to satan, because they had all been delivered to him, the account says. |
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Once again _NO_. Satan is being quoted. The inclusion of the quote in the Bible does not make it true anymore than Judas' quote about how the offerings should be spent is true or Satan's earlier quote about Job's loyalty is true.
It is a quote from Satan. A "satanic quotation" and you're treating it as the gospel. That is so weird coming from someone who claims to be religious that it defies description. In point of fact Satan is over reaching here, he's claiming an authority to dispense that he doesn't have. An authority that Romans 13 says lies elsewhere and that is actually _given_ by God. I'll trust Paul in this matter before I trust Satan.
Quote:| He had offered them all to the Christ for one act of worship. Belonging to him, they would all be under his power and control, because he it was, that gave them power and Throne and great authority. {1 John 5:19} {Revelation 13:1,2} |
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Only if you understand Revelation as the society does. First John speaks of something other than governments, that is what is elsewhere referred to as the "air" of the world. That is, the inclinations of the mass of mankind. This inclination, corrupted by the fall, is evil and under Satan's sway since he acted as the catalyst for the fall.
Your reading of Luke would make every King of Israel and agent of Satan, even those that God declared "good". It would also rule out the use of Kings like what happened with Darius and Cyrus.
Quote:| the vast Commercial empire |
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That is so Judge Rutherford. So, in the process of trading we commit sin? Are the commercial regulations in the Law of Moses therefore evil in and of themselves?
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No, everything is God's. Satan is merely allowed, as per the texts in Job, to make use of it.
Quote:| Paul called him the god of this World, and being such, the World of Mankind would be worshipping him, as any god would require. {2 Corinthians 4:3,4} |
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Agreed. But such worship would be illegitimate _because_ it is not directed to the true God who is the True Master.
Quote:| This would be the reason, the true followers of the Christ, would needs, be, chosen out of this World; as stated by Jesus: "If you were part of the World, the World would be fond of what is its own, Now because you are no part of this World, but I have chosen you out of the World, on this account the World hates you." {John 15: 19} Reasonably then, it would be these ones chosen out of this World, that would be the true worshippers of Jehovah; worshipping him as he desired, in Spirit and in truth. While all the majority of mankind would be satan worshippers, evidenced by their hatred of the true followers of the Christ. |
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Your staying on message here. Good. Agreed.
Quote:| This enmity, or hatred would be a carry-over of the hatred that would exist between the two seeds, or the Women of these seeds, Jehovah foretold in the Genesis account, at Genesis 3:15- His own heavenly Woman, and satan's earthly Woman, as pictured sitting atop the wild beast, in the Revelation account. |
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Ah...no. First these women are never shown in conflict as they are metaphors for something entirely other than what the Society shows them as metaphors for. You are using the Societies theology rather than depending on the teachings of Christ and those He sent forth. For example, Gen 3:15 speaks of Satan's offspring, not of any offspring of a woman of Satan's.
Quote:| This hatred would, at first, be directed towards the Christ, but would, of course spread to all of the true seed's followers. satan was to merely bruise the heel of the Christ, while the Christ would eventually deliver a fatal head-wound to satan the devil. {Acts 7:52} {Revelation 12:1-4; 17:3-6;18:24 {Matthew 23:33-36} {Genesis 15:5;22:17;26:3-6;24,25} {Galatians 3:16} {Revelation 20:1-3; 7-10} {Matthew 25:41} |
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Agreed, as do the Fathers that you so disrespect. For example, Irenaeus in "Against Heresies":
Christ completely renewed all things, both taking up the battle against our enemy and crushing him who at the beginning had led us captive in Adam, trampling on his head, as you find in Genesis that God said to the serpent, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and the seed of the woman..." From then on it was proclaimed that he who was to be born of a virgin, after the likeness of Adam, would be on the watch for the serpent's head. This is the seed of which the apostle says in the letter to the Galatians, "The law of works was established until the seed should come to whom the promise was made." He shows this still more clearly in the same epistle when he says, "But when the the fullnesss of time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman." The enemy would not have been justly conquered unless it had been a man made of woman who conquered him. For it was by a woman that he had power over man from the beginning, setting himself up in opposition to man. Because of this the Lord also declares himself to be the Son of Man, so renewing in himself that primal man from whom the formation of man by woman began, that as our race went down to death by a man who overcame, and as death won the palm of victory over us by a man, so we might by a man receive the palm of victory over death."
Quote:| As we might expect, that hatred is still very much alive, and well, today; for those that really do worship the Father as he requires are still hated today, just as much as ever; only now, maybe more so, since the time for satans chaining and abyssing could very well be on our very doorstep. Increasing satan's anger to the limit! So, that foretold enmity would greatly increase, because of that, naturally, and is expected to. Matthew 24:9} |
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Agreed, more or less.
Quote:| Does not exactly the same apply to me? I'm thinking it certainly does! |
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This is a ham handed way to try to introduce the martyr complex again. Being hated is not enough. You have to be hated for doing the right things. You seem to be trying to justify a life in which you are not well liked rather than correcting the problem.
Quote:| You may all be more than slightly miffed at me at the moment; but think about it, for a moment. The fact that I do know all of this, does that mean that I'm going to make it in under the Kingdom? |
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You are right, you don't have to know everything to be saved. Thank heaven for that.
Quote:| Held under satan's power? |
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The Saints are not held under Satan's power. To the contrary we are told otherwise. Both that we, "will not be tested beyond what we can bear," and the promise of James 4:7 (that is, "resist the Devil and he will flee from you.")
Quote:| If anything; even was I not to make it myself, what's stopping any of you from making it? Just the mere fact, that I've told all of you this, doesn't in any way harm you. The fact of the matter is; I've done you the greatest service anyone could ever do you, by passing along this information to you. True! |
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You presume our ignorance and belittle the tough choices we have made to be here. I would gladly go back to my family and be a Witness for the peace of mind alone. We may be here because we have made rational choices that you have failed to address.
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Result 64 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: worship in spirit and truth- Applies to whom (Read 11 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | worship in spirit and truth- Applies to whom
« Result #64 on Dec 19, 2009, 9:50am » | |
Worship in Spirit and in Truth! To whom would it apply?
In John 4:7-29 we learn, that it is, not we, that decide just how we'll worship Jehovah; he has made that descision for himself, he decides how his worshippers will worship him, and it's either his narrow way, or broad the highway! We do not follow the way of this Worlds worship, for that is not Jehovah's way! It is the devils way!
We know from the account in Luke 4:5-8 that all the Kingdoms of the earth belonged to satan, because they had all been delivered to him, the account says. He had offered them all to the Christ for one act of worship. Belonging to him, they would all be under his power and control, because he it was, that gave them power and Throne and great authority. {1 John 5:19} {Revelation 13:1,2}
Locked in his power as they all are, they are all misled by him, and he has the minds of the World blinded, as to seeing the truth of God's word, the Bible. So, this entire World, as it is made up, belongs to satan the devil. Every part of it! The Religious Institutions, the Political Institutions, the vast Commercial empire, all belongs to the devil, anything, and everything, on this planet, is under satans power. Paul called him the god of this World, and being such, the World of Mankind would be worshipping him, as any god would require. {2 Corinthians 4:3,4}
This would be the reason, the true followers of the Christ, would needs, be, chosen out of this World; as stated by Jesus: "If you were part of the World, the World would be fond of what is its own, Now because you are no part of this World, but I have chosen you out of the World, on this account the World hates you." {John 15: 19} Reasonably then, it would be these ones chosen out of this World, that would be the true worshippers of Jehovah; worshipping him as he desired, in Spirit and in truth. While all the majority of mankind would be satan worshippers, evidenced by their hatred of the true followers of the Christ.
This enmity, or hatred would be a carry-over of the hatred that would exist between the two seeds, or the Women of these seeds, Jehovah foretold in the Genesis account, at Genesis 3:15- His own heavenly Woman, and satan's earthly Woman, as pictured sitting atop the wild beast, in the Revelation account. This hatred would, at first, be directed towards the Christ, but would, of course spread to all of the true seed's followers. satan was to merely bruise the heel of the Christ, while the Christ would eventually deliver a fatal head-wound to satan the devil. {Acts 7:52} {Revelation 12:1-4; 17:3-6;18:24 {Matthew 23:33-36} {Genesis 15:5;22:17;26:3-6;24,25} {Galatians 3:16} {Revelation 20:1-3; 7-10} {Matthew 25:41}
As we might expect, that hatred is still very much alive, and well, today; for those that really do worship the Father as he requires are still hated today, just as much as ever; only now, maybe more so, since the time for satans chaining and abyssing could very well be on our very doorstep. Increasing satan's anger to the limit! So, that foretold enmity would greatly increase, because of that, naturally, and is expected to. Matthew 24:9}
All of this begets the questions: Have you been chosen out of the World? Are you, because of that choosing, no part of this World as the Master was no part of this World? Is your worship in spirit and in truth? Jesus said: "I have given your word to them." Because of that, are you hated by this World, because you are no part of it, as those first Century Christian's, was not? Have you been given the word of truth? Are you hated because of teaching those truths? If all of that is true, and you can say that you have been chosen, you are no part of this world, you are hated by this world, you are worshipping in spirit and in truth; if you cannot, you are not! Does not exactly the same apply to me? I'm thinking it certainly does!
You may all be more than slightly miffed at me at the moment; but think about it, for a moment. The fact that I do know all of this, does that mean that I'm going to make it in under the Kingdom? I see nowhere where it`s carved in stone, that even I`ll make it, in the Bible. Didn`t Jesus say: "But he that has endured to the end is he one that will be saved."
Endure what? Isn't it the foretold enmity, or hatred, Jehovah mentioned to the devil? The hatred of this World for the seed of the heavenly Woman; Jehovah's chosen ones? held under satan's power? If anything; even was I not to make it myself, what's stopping any of you from making it? Just the mere fact, that I've told all of you this, doesn't in any way harm you. The fact of the matter is; I've done you the greatest service anyone could ever do you, by passing along this information to you. True!
I myself may not make it, but what is to stop any of you from doing so? You are all free agents! You can decide for yourselves, to do, this, that, or the other thing, can you not? So what harm would I have done you, if you find yourself, a survivor living under God's Kingdom Rule? With me, maybe, outside, looking in? That possibility is very real, is it not? No! I"ve tried to help all of you, Not hurt anyone, at all. shiner
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Result 65 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Converting a JW (Read 114 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Converting a JW
« Result #65 on Dec 18, 2009, 5:25pm » | |
Dec 18, 2009, 3:01pm, bluestreak wrote:universal,
I've got to hand it to you. You are stronger than I. My wife if a JW and my 18 year old daughter is studying. She has a Catholic BF for about 14 months now. My bride interjects from time to time about how they are too close.
She did say last month that she missed Christmas. She has also been communicating with a few more of her friends from High School. My wife is livid.
You asked about why the CC doesn't DF or excommunicate people more readily.
Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The Church understands that the wheat will be separated from the chaff. The goats will be separated from the sheep. Yet, it will be Christ as judge to separate. Excommunication can have eternal consequences. Yet, not excommunicating does not exempt one from judgment.
This is a heavy burden, being in a relationship with a JW.
Prayers,
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If I may Blue one of the other reasons is everything that happened from the 1500's to the 1700's. Prior to this point excommunication had some sort of universal meaning and could in theory be universally applied. With the coming of the Reformation that universal meaning in the West was lost. In addition in the years leading up to and during excommunications could be seen as a political weapon such as when Venice was placed under interdict in 1605 (might be 1606...can't remember).
By the 1700's the Wars of Religion and the Enlightenment had worn down everyone's desire for quick excommunications and the formal practice died down such that it only found extensive use in the piestic protestant communities that eventually made America home.
In summary then its is used less because of the fear that it wouldn't act to its remedial purpose (that is excommunication is _supposed_ to be corrective) and would be seen as belligerent and or political. As the world becomes more secular though this argument is loosing favor since a bright line is once again easy to draw.
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Result 66 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Converting a JW (Read 114 times) |
bluestreak
Catechumen
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« Result #66 on Dec 18, 2009, 3:01pm » | |
universal,
I've got to hand it to you. You are stronger than I. My wife if a JW and my 18 year old daughter is studying. She has a Catholic BF for about 14 months now. My bride interjects from time to time about how they are too close.
She did say last month that she missed Christmas. She has also been communicating with a few more of her friends from High School. My wife is livid.
You asked about why the CC doesn't DF or excommunicate people more readily.
Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The Church understands that the wheat will be separated from the chaff. The goats will be separated from the sheep. Yet, it will be Christ as judge to separate. Excommunication can have eternal consequences. Yet, not excommunicating does not exempt one from judgment.
This is a heavy burden, being in a relationship with a JW.
Prayers,
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Result 67 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge and understanding? (Read 16 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge and understand
« Result #67 on Dec 18, 2009, 1:36pm » | |
Dec 18, 2009, 9:35am, shiner wrote:| Who can teach Jehovah knowledge and understanding? |
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Let me start by saying, that as a Trinitarian I confess that there is no creature that can teach Jehovah. I'm sure every Trinitarian here will make a similar confession.
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Result 68 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Have any appointments to office been made as yet? (Read 34 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Have any appointments to office been made as y
« Result #68 on Dec 18, 2009, 12:56pm » | |
Dec 18, 2009, 8:20am, shiner wrote:GT!
Oh! By the way, Revelation 2:26 told you that they had to CONQUER and observe the deeds of Jesus right to THE END! REvelation 2:10 tells you, "Be faithful, even to death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation11:15-18 shows you very clearly that no aoppointments come until the Kingdom of God actually arrives. You'd best be reading Revelation 11:15-18 all overagain, because you quite obviously missed the point first time around! Give it another shot GT! Shiner |
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I agree that the "Crown of Life" is given only after we have run our course on earth. However, you are confusing a reward (the Crown of Life) with an office. I'm not sure why you are convinced that Rev 11:15-18 makes this clear as it mentions no timeline and is vague on who these elders are.
If anything v 18 runs counter to your theory. The prophets had the office of prophet, yet at the end the time has come, "for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name." That is the verse clearly separates the two. Nor have you addressed the verses mentioned by either me or Blue. I've now addressed you, address us.
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Result 69 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Have any appointments to office been made as yet? (Read 34 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: Have any appointments to office been made as y
« Result #69 on Dec 18, 2009, 12:49pm » | |
Dec 18, 2009, 8:12am, shiner wrote:
20 "Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me." {John 15:20,21 ASV}
9 "I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority." {3 John 1:9 ESV} |
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In regards to the threads topic, that is whether offices were filled, this of course runs against your original point. John makes clear that someone would be persecuted and then in his epistle talks about an organization (church).
Quote:How like Diotrephes you are GT! An EACT DUPLICATE! Shiner!
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I have to be careful about whose authority I accept. As I've pointed out, just being opposed means nothing in the same way that just having faith means nothing (cf. James "the demons believe and shudder"). You have to prove your authority.
The interesting thing is that you have claimed, in this thread no less, that no offices can be filled. Therefore, under your own reasoning you have no office and should not be followed. I believe such reasoning is folly, but it is interesting that it undermines your accusation.
Absent your claims we turn to the proofs found elsewhere that we discussed. That is:
1.) A sign
2.) A provable prophecy
3.) Laying on of hands
As you're unable to demonstrate any of these three I _can't_ accept your message. It would be _wrong_ to do so.
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Result 70 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
bluestreak
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Karma: 3 | | Re: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition!
« Result #70 on Dec 18, 2009, 11:04am » | |
Philipians 2
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Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
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Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
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Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,
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he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
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Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
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that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
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and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
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Result 71 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition! (Read 49 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge? Addition!
« Result #71 on Dec 18, 2009, 10:54am » | |
Who can teach Jehovah knowledge and understanding? With addition!
In this first scripture we learn, that Jesus had to be taught by his his Father; so before being taught, he would have been devoid of the knowledge he had been taught; he would be lacking in that knowledge, and had to be taught it by his Father. That is why, Jesus could say, as he did: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." {John 7:16} Further, he had stated: "I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, because all the things I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." {John 15:15}
8 Jesus therefore said, "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things." {John 8:28 ASV} Now, all of that is pretty clear, is it not?
Look now at the challenge Jehovah throws out in Isaiah the Prophet!
13 "Who hath directed the Spirit of Jehovah, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding?" {Isaiah 40:13,14 ASV} Anyone wish to step forward and volunteer for the job of teaching Jehovah? Come on now Trinitarians don't be bashful! Step up, and do your teaching!
Yeah! Who was that one? Just dying to know! Aren't you?
Even Jesus, couldn't give you an answer to that one, now could he? Or, wait a moment, yes he could too! He would know, that there was no one, with more knowledge than his Father had. There was no one could teach Jehovah one single thing! Unless, of course, the Trinitarians believe, that they can teach Jehovah something he doesn't already know about himself! I feel it safe to say, Jehovah would deeply apprectiate knowing anything they could tell him about himself; perhaps something he himself has forgotten, and needs a little memory jog, to bring it back, to his mind.
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord {Jehovah} and who has understood His thoughts, or who has [ever] been His counselor?"{Romans 11:34 AB}
16 "For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord {Jehovah} so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart." {1 Corinthians 2:16 AB}
We can come to know the mind of the Christ, only as far as Jehovah, has revealed himself to him, but no further than that. One notices in both of these scriptures, in Romans and Corinthians the word lord is rendered in lower case letters, while they should not be, because both are obviously talking about Jehovah, and should more accurately be rendered LORD, All capititalized; showing that the true God is meant, not the Christ, who is also titled lord, but the Christ title should more properly be rendered in the lower case letters. Showing the distinction between the two, because there is a definite distinction between Father, and Son. As the Bible makes perfectly clear in so many places.
So, No! The Christ could never have been God on this earth, because the true God would never have had to be taught, by anyone. The fact that the Christ had to be taught, should show us all that he definitely was not God. Not the slimmest chance in the World of that! Even as we can come to know the mind of the Christ, and to that extent, know God; it will only be as far as Jehovah has revealed himself to him. But, "who has known the mind of Jehovah?" "Who can teach him knowledge and understanding? Certainly not the Trinitarians! Shiner
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Result 72 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Have any appointments to office been made as yet? (Read 34 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #72 on Dec 18, 2009, 10:53am » | |
Without flat out telling you that you are comparing apples to oranges...hmmm, well OK!
You are comparing apples to oranges...
If you will tell us what specific 'OFFICE' you are referring to...you may find a higher level of agreement with your topic. Rather you seem to lump any 'office' into the same category and determine that appointments to any office, in heaven or in the church, is biblically invalid.
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Result 73 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge and understanding? (Read 16 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Who can teach Jehovah Knowledge and understanding?
« Result #73 on Dec 18, 2009, 9:35am » | |
Who can teach Jehovah knowledge and understanding?
In this first scripture we learn, that Jesus had to be taught by his Father; so before being taught, he would have been devoid of the knowledge he had been taught; he would be lacking in that knowledge, and had to be taught it by his Father.
That is why, Jesus could say, as he did: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." {John 7:16} Further, he had stated: "I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, because all the things I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." {John 15:15}
28 Jesus therefore said, "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things." {John 8:28 ASV} Now, all of that is pretty clear, is it not?
Look now at the challenge Jehovah throws out in Isaiah the Prophet!
13 "Who hath directed the Spirit of Jehovah, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding?" {Isaiah 40:13,14 ASV} Anyone wish to step forward and volunteer for the job of teaching Jehovah? Come on now Trinitarians don't be bashful! Step up, and do your teaching!
Yeah! Who was that one? Just dying to know! Aren't you? Even Jesus, couldn't give you an answer to that one, now could he? Or, wait a moment, yes he could too! He would know, that there was no one, with more knowledge than his Father had. There was no one could teach Jehovah one single thing! Unless, of course, the Trinitarians believe, that they can teach Jehovah something he doesn't already know about himself! I feel it safe to say, Jehovah would deeply apprectiate knowing anything they could tell him about himself; perhaps something he himself has forgotten, and needs a little memory jog, to bring it back, to his mind. Ha! Shiner
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Result 74 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Have any appointments to office been made as yet? (Read 34 times) |
shiner
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« Result #74 on Dec 18, 2009, 8:20am » | |
GT!
Oh! By the way, Revelation 2:26 told you that they had to CONQUER and observe the deeds of Jesus right to THE END! REvelation 2:10 tells you, "Be faithful, even to death and I will give you the crown of life." Revelation11:15-18 shows you very clearly that no aoppointments come until the Kingdom of God actually arrives. You'd best be reading Revelation 11:15-18 all overagain, because you quite obviously missed the point first time around! Give it another shot GT! Shiner
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Result 75 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Have any appointments to office been made as yet? (Read 34 times) |
shiner
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« Result #75 on Dec 18, 2009, 8:12am » | |
GT!
Any familiar chords struck here, GT? Any at all?
3 "He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." {Isaiah 53:3-12 ASB}
20 "Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me." {John 15:20,21 ASV}
9 "I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority." {3 John 1:9 ESV}
How like Diotrephes you are GT! An EACT DUPLICATE! Shiner!
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Result 76 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: God's Organization today! Where is it? (Read 23 times) |
bluestreak
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« Result #76 on Dec 17, 2009, 5:29pm » | |
Shiner,
Christ founded a congregation:
Matthew 16
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When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
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They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
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He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
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11 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
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Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
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And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
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I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Christ saw to the education of his congregation:
John 14
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The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
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Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
He gave specific instructions to his congregation:
Matthew 28
19Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
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teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
The members of His congregation have different responsibilities and some even offices:
1 Corinthians 12
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Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
There is even indication of how these offices are filled
Acts 1:
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For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'
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Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
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beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection."
Even some of the offices have qualifications:
1 Timothy 3
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This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.
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Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,
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not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.
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He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity;
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for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?
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He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil's punishment.
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He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil's trap.
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Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain,
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holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
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Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
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Women, similarly, should be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in everything.
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Deacons may be married only once and must manage their children and their households well.
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Thus those who serve well as deacons gain good standing and much confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.
The church (congregation) has been issued parameters within which to operate. It is within these parameters that heresies were responded to. It is within these parameteers that the books of the Bible were selected.
Have these paramenters made any one person or any group of people impeccable? NO!
We are here for Christ! We are his Church (congregation) that he established upon the ROCK!
You ask about "God's Organization" in a very limiting manner. Why are these instructions here if not to provide for the organization of his Church, the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, the baptizing of all in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.
His Church is to be
ONE - United
HOLY - Serving Christ
CATHOLIC - Universal - All People
APOSTOLIC - Following the Teaching of the Apostles
These are the marks of His Church.
There is organization within His Church. That is his instruction.
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Result 77 of 100:
| | Author | Announcement: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity (Read 1,877 times) |
onpatmos
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« Result #77 on Dec 17, 2009, 5:01pm » | |
Why teach a doctrine that the Christ didn't teach?
Who was it that first said "... the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"? (Matthew 28:19)
When the disciples obeyed Jesus and baptized converts in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - and there is no other way - was that the first time that the converts first heard those three mentioned together, was it "sprung on them" then? What meaning would that have had for them? Really, what is the full significance of being baptized in that name? How much did you or I hear during our years in the organization about what it means to be baptized in that name? This can't just be glossed over or minimized - this is the entrance of a person into the Christian life - in that name. Or does it make more sense that the disciples had already mentioned them together (preached in that name) to converts before baptism?
Jesus used "name" instead of "names" What is the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? Also - what makes more sense - person, person, inanimate force - or - person, person, person?
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Result 78 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: God's Organization today! Where is it? (Read 23 times) |
shiner
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« Result #78 on Dec 17, 2009, 4:39pm » | |
GT!
You know GT! I think I can say, one thing you'll agree with me on! That is, You don't agree with me! I don't agree with you! We could Bat it back and forth forever, and it would be forever that way, without ever changing! Right GT? Go ahead! I know, you don't agree with that either! Shiner
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Result 79 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: The Holy Spirit is God! (Read 206 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: The Holy Spirit is God!
« Result #79 on Dec 17, 2009, 4:32pm » | |
Dec 17, 2009, 4:08pm, shiner wrote:Give this a lookover:
"I myself have made the earth, Mankind and the Beasts that are upon the surface of the earth by MY GREAT POWER and by my out-stretched - Arm and I have given it to whom it has proved righteous in my eyes." {Jeremiah 27:5} |
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If we take this as literally as you want to read it, that is that none other than God was involved in creation, then you must accept that Jesus is also God. I'm fine with that, but it doesn't go where you want to go and Arius would have been careful not to make such a serious mistake.
Quote:| "Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the Watery- deep and God's ACTIVE FORCE was moving to and fro over the surface of the Waters." {Genesis 1:2} I'm thinking if we really wish to know what the Holy Spirit is, we should ask the one who is in possession of it! Great idea what? Shiner |
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Active force is a bad translation. "Spirit" or "breath" is much better. Even then the same commentary holds, we know that the Father was not the only one involved, so if we hold to your reading then all three are one in at least some strange way.
At this point you have to deal with that trickiest of versus. That is v 27. Here God says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
"Our" is critical here as it is one of the few times that God is self-referentially plural. Now the Witnesses argue that he is referring to the angels, but as you yourself have shown, the NT makes it clear that only one other person has claimed the "likeness" of God.
Then we have to deal with those other odd situations for Witness theology on the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:6 - "And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia."
A "power" acts. It does not forbid. To forbid it has to communicate, as a person would.
1 Cor 6:19 - "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?"
You don't have a temple to an attribute of a thing/god, you have a temple to the thing itself.
Acts 8:29 - "And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot.""
Persons talk, things without personalities don't.
And of course...
Matthew 28:19 - "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "
Now it is true that things have names, but why include an attribute amongst a list of persons?
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Result 80 of 100:
| | Author | Announcement: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity (Read 1,877 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity
« Result #80 on Dec 17, 2009, 4:23pm » | |
GT!
So! You went Trinitarian, did you? Now why would I believe that? Why teach a doctrine, that none of the Hebrew writers taught? Why teach a doctrine that the Christ didn't teach? Why teach a doctrine that the twelve Apostles knew nothing about, and diidn't teach it themselves? Why teach that doctrine, when the Hebrew Bible writers, taught that Jehovah was only ONE GOD - NONE LIKE HIM- NO EQUAL? Why teach a doctrine when all of the Greek writers taught only ONE GOD? Both Hebrew and Greek in full harmony one with the other? Both taught, only ONE GOD! How do you get three out of ONE? Great trick if you can really do it, I'd say GT! Shiner
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Result 81 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: The Holy Spirit is God! (Read 206 times) |
shiner
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Karma: -11 | | Re: The Holy Spirit is God!
« Result #81 on Dec 17, 2009, 4:08pm » | |
Give this a lookover:
"I myself have made the earth, Mankind and the Beasts that are upon the surface of the earth by MY GREAT POWER and by my out-stretched - Arm and I have given it to whom it has proved righteous in my eyes." {Jeremiah 27:5} "Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the Watery- deep and God's ACTIVE FORCE was moving to and fro over the surface of the Waters." {Genesis 1:2} I'm thinking if we really wish to know what the Holy Spirit is, we should ask the one who is in possession of it! Great idea what? Shiner
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Result 82 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: God's Organization today! Where is it? (Read 23 times) |
gkchesterton
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« Result #82 on Dec 17, 2009, 2:43pm » | |
I'm going to snip through some commentary that we agree on, that is that Christ is Lord. Always a good place to start.
Dec 17, 2009, 11:09am, shiner wrote:
All of that being true, then, just where do we think Jehovah's Organization is located today, right now? The answer is obvious, isn't it? Rather than being an earthly Organization now, it is a heavenly Organization, with the Christ controlling everything, from his position at his Fathers right hand; unless, of course, someone believes that the Christ is not capable of guiding and directing his own Congregation, over which, he is the head. He managed to do that quite well in the first Century, why would he have any problem doing it now, the same way he did it then, after his ascension? |
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This is another false dichotomy and a tendency towards gnosticism. Look, we all agree that God runs things. God is Absolute. Jesus, even in Arian view such as yours, is a conduit of the Divine.
However, if your understanding were correct there would be no prophets as such. Israel, a holy people, would have _all_ been prophets. Korah, in effect, would have been correct. Now we know that this isn't true, that God has special loves (like Moses and the other patriarchs).
This is why offices were given to the Church (cf. 1 Corinthians 12). Among those offices were "leaders" in as much as their leadership was _dependent_. For example Hebrews 13:17 reminds us, "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." It is interesting that the Bishops themselves have Spiritual Fathers. For example, the Pope has the Pastor of the Pontifical Household and his Confessor. All Bishops East and West have these Confessors (or at least are supposed to have them).
God works through these gifts of men. If he didn't there would be no creation as _all_ creation is a manifestation of His will. This is where your gnostic tendencies undermine your understanding of the Bible.
In quoting Hebrews 12 you don't shock us. You are correct that Jesus must be the center of all things. However, since you mentioned that you were in transport (and I assume a truck driver), Jesus is still the center when you pay attention to the road in as much as doing so fulfills his will. Likewise a properly ordered Church should not distract from His worship even if it has human servitors.
Since all creation is Holy (which is why Peter was ordered "rise up and eat") you should not see a dichotomy with the service rendered here.
Quote:| Not a chance of that! God's organization was now in the heavens, |
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An interesting phrase since it implies something inherent to God changed. God just doesn't change. As we have seen the "gifts in men" continued and were organized on Earth. The Council of Jerusalem confirms that, unless you don't hold Acts to be canonical.
Quote:36 Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”
{John 18:36 NLT}
Now! Just who is it, that would no better than the King of God's Kingdom, just where that Organization was, then, and is now? |
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Be aware that in context and via the Greek this is a statement that he was not attempting to set up a political organization, that is, he wasn't a Jewish Zealot.
Quote:| Where God's Organization is today, is very clear; and I used the Bible to show exactly where it is! Shiner |
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And as I've pointed out, in as much as we agree that Jesus is Lord there is no disagreement. From there we disagree since you attempt to prevent God from acting through men. Once you do this all prophecy becomes invalid. In many ways, while you don't seek to, you limit God.
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Result 83 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: The Canon of Criticism (Read 25 times) |
gkchesterton
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Karma: 10 | | Re: The Canon of Criticism
« Result #83 on Dec 17, 2009, 12:58pm » | |
Dec 17, 2009, 12:02pm, onpatmos wrote:
I would be interested to see responses to what Cardinal Ratzinger had to say, or for that matter, if anyone else here has been reading Ratzinger/Benedict here, and their observations.
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I read Salt of the Earth several years ago right before then Cardinal Ratzinger was elected so I thank you for the link.
I think the Dogma of Infallibility is both rightly misunderstood and far less controversial once you understand what it means. Its also interesting that the Church itself isn't perfectly comfortable with _how_ it can be used. My position is more Eastern so I personally hold it can only be used judicially, that is when a case is appealed to the pope for resolution for whatever reason, and when he acts as the head of a council. If anything it is amusing that the past few popes have spent an enormous amount of time pointing out what they _can't_ do (for example WO).
This blends in with his second point on affirmation or condemnation. He follows the Fathers and Chesterton and Lewis who all tell us that there is dramatic tension. If we try to tease out a theme from the Bible we fail. There is a host of Holy Paradoxes that we should pay attention to.
His attention to the "People of God" (or Greek "Laos" from which we get laity) is critical. I'm ashamed to say that many Orthodox no longer sing as a congregation even though this is an expression of their priesthood. One of the gifts though of the Orthodox in this matter is their insistence on the laity acclaiming the decisions made by the other orders. For example, the "amen" used at various points during the liturgy and the acclimation of, "he is worthy," when a new deacon, priest, or bishop is minted.
Most of his conclusion is devoted to divorce and abortion and one of my biggest griefs with Orthodoxy is that it doesn't take abortion or divorce as seriously as the West does (see for example the Patriarch of Constantinople's recent comments). This is much to the West's credit and Benedict goes a long way in concisely explaining their importance.
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Result 84 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: The Good News of the Kingdom! Is it authorized? (Read 45 times) |
bluestreak
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Karma: 3 | | Re: The Good News of the Kingdom! Is it authorized
« Result #84 on Dec 17, 2009, 12:33pm » | |
Shiner,
Most of the people here agree that the Governing Body is NOT the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" We agree that they are not Spirit driven. We agree that they are not "God's channel of communication"
There are still some differences. Christ's Invisible return for example. Perhaps you can show us where that is scriptural? The Bible describes Christ's return and that description is anything but invisible.
For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matt 24:27)
I can feel your pain with regards to your family. My situation is not much different. If my marriage ends, it will likely be a result of complications arising out of my wife's journey into the WT.
Remember that the Governing Body teaches in half-truths, fallacies of every sort. Much the same way as Satan has done.
The GB relies upon "reasoning". This reasoning is flawed. Every day I see a witness that struggles with "reasoning" against TRUTH. Many of these struggles are manifested in physical or mental illness or substance abuse.
Where did you get teachings such as "Christ returned invisibly in 1914."???? 
What other teachings did you receive from the GB?
Have you looked to see whether these were more half-truths?
Do not feel as though the people here are out to attack YOU! Many have recognized that the WT is wrong. Heck, this board exists for the purpose of exposing that fact.
There is much healing to do.
In my line of work, I have seen many people resist getting help for drug addiction, alcoholism, thievery, depression, and many other problems. Most of the time their stumbling block is something small that they can't imagine being without.
You are here.
The other people here have either rejected or resisted the teachings of the Governing Body. Many have recovered through the Love of the Catholic Church.
How did that happen?
Faith, Hope, and Love!
My wife tells me constantly that I am too "puffed up with PRIDE" to see the truth. Of course, I am here asking for help. Not just for my pride issues, but help in defending my faith. I get a great deal of help from GK and Jeff.
Are you seeking counsel here out of humility? I only ask, because it appears that you are clinging tightly to many of the teachings of the WT.
In short:
If you are here seeking fellowship with others that hold that the WTBTS and it's Governing Body are not 'God's Organization,' 'God's Channel of Communication,' 'God's Spirit Directed Organization,' the 'Temple Class,' 'the Mother of all Christians.' Then you will find much of that fellowship, love and prayers.
If you are here to denounce the WTBTS Governing Body, but at the same time promote the teachings of that group as truth, you will not find much in the way of agreement. (Yet, I am sure you will still receive our love and prayers!)
Pax
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Result 85 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: The Canon of Criticism (Read 25 times) |
onpatmos
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Karma: 11 | | The Canon of Criticism
« Result #85 on Dec 17, 2009, 12:02pm » | |
No, I'm not talking about criticism beiing used as artillery fire. I'm talking about "canon", not "cannon."
This is a reference to a chapter in the book "Salt of the Earth", an interview by Peter Seewald with the then Joseph Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI. I was introduced to the book through an abbreviated audio recording; I've picked up the book and begun reading.
The idea is that there are more-or-less standard issues (a "canon") that people have a gripe against the Catholic Church with. They are brought up to Cardinal Ratzinger in the interview, and he responds. I've found an online version of the chapter here:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0633.html
I think it may be of interest to people who read this board; many of us are a product of a system in which objections to Catholicism are prominent. And although it doesn't address some of the particular issues that the WTS brings up against the Church, such as objections to the Trinity, it does answer some other, broader questions that people think about. I was impressed with Cardinal Ratiznger's ability to respond with the level of clarity he did in an interview situation.
I would be interested to see responses to what Cardinal Ratzinger had to say, or for that matter, if anyone else here has been reading Ratzinger/Benedict here, and their observations.
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Result 86 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: God's Organization today! Where is it? (Read 23 times) |
shiner
Church Militant
member is offline
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Posts: 170
Karma: -11 | | God's Organization today! Where is it?
« Result #86 on Dec 17, 2009, 11:09am » | |
God's Organization today! Where is it?
Many today believe, that, for the purpose of Organization, Jehovah would have to have a visible Organization on the earth today. What, though, are these who think that, failing to realise?
Is it not true, that after the Christ ascended to his Fathers right hand, he was still, although not visibly present with them, the one leader and one teacher? Still the head of the Christian congregation? Would the Christ, even from his heavenly position, not be able to guide and direct the affairs of his Congregation over which he was the head, from that vantage point? The scriptural record says, he could, and he did, exactly that! {Mathew 23:8-10} {Ephesians 5:23}
Now, he controled everything, by means of the Holy Spirit, from his position at his Fathers right hand, revealing everything to them by means of Revelations from the invisible heavens. Now, the Bible, is the source, that teaches us, that, that, is the way it was back then, that is the way it is now. Nothing has changed other than his location. He is still the one leader! He is still the one teacher! He is still the head of the Christian Congregation. {Galatians 1:11,12} {Ephesains 3:3} {Revelation 1:1,2} { 1 Corinthians 2:9,10}
All of that being true, then, just where do we think Jehovah's Organization is located today, right now? The answer is obvious, isn't it? Rather than being an earthly Organization now, it is a heavenly Organization, with the Christ controlling everything, from his position at his Fathers right hand; unless, of course, someone believes that the Christ is not capable of guiding and directing his own Congregation, over which, he is the head. He managed to do that quite well in the first Century, why would he have any problem doing it now, the same way he did it then, after his ascension?
Where did the early Bible writers focus our attention on, as to where Jehovah's Organization is now? Surely they, if anyone knew that, they would have. Lets look and see, in which direction the Apostle Paul focuses our attention on, to see if its in a heavenly, or earthly direction:
22 "No, YOU HAVE COME TO MOUNT ZION, TO THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. 23 You have come to the assembly of GOD'S FIRST BORN CHILDREN WHOSE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN. You have come TO GOD HIMSELF, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS ONES IN HEAVEN WHO HAVE NOW BEEN MADE PERFECT. YOU HAVE COME TO JESUS, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel." Hebrews 12:18-24 NLT}
Note that please! Where Paul said we had come to! To Mount Zion! The City of the living God. The heavenly Jerusalem! To God himself! You have come to Jesus! The one mediator between God and people. Was Paul directing our attention on any earthly Organization? Not a chance of that! God's organization was now in the heavens, and that's where Paul told us it was, and just whom would know better than Paul? Certainly none of us, would know that, unless of course it had been revealed to us by Jehovah, through his Son, in charge of the Holy Spirit!
The Apostle John as well, envisioned this heavenly Orgainization, and he too, told us, that it was a Heavenly Organization, by his words to us: Note his words:
1 "Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads." {Revelation 14:1 NLT}
So, like Paul, John directed our attention to the heavenly Spirit Realm, in the vision he had, had. What else did Paul have to tell us about this Heavenly Organization? Note these words of Paul:
1 "For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS." {2 Corinthians 5:1 ASV}
Jesus himself corroborated Paul's and John's statements, with his following words:
36 Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”
{John 18:36 NLT}
Now! Just who is it, that would no better than the King of God's Kingdom, just where that Organization was, then, and is now?
Do any other of God's Prophets, stand in agreeance, with Paul, John, and Jesus? Isaiah the Prophet most certainly did; for look what he had to say about this matter:
6 "For a child will be born for us,
a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." {Isaiah 9:6-7 HCSB}
Now where did the Prophet Isaiah say that on the shoulders God's Oganization would be resting? On the shoulders of the Christ, is that not correct? Of course it is! Was the Christ not the Child born to us? Was he not, THE most wonderful teacher to ever walk this earth? One of the most wonderful counselors? Was he not the Prince of peace? Who besides him could bring peace with no end? Is he not, now, seated on the Throne of David? Is his Throne, not now, as Paul said: "Eternal in the heavens?" Has not Jehovah himself told us, the following, about his own future ruling Throne?:
19 "Jehovah hath established his throne in the heavens; And his kingdom ruleth over all." {Psalm 103:19 ASV} Did not, too, the Prophet Daniel speak of this Throne, or heavenly Government, or, if you will his Organization?
44"And in the days of these kings shall the God of the heavens set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the sovereignty thereof shall not be left to another people: it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, but itself shall stand for ever." "Everlasting IN THE HEAVENS," said Paul! {Daniel 2:44 DT}
Let it be known, that the King of God's Kingdom, is adequetly qualified, to direct, govern, and, administer, to the needs of all under his authority and rule, without the aid of any earthly Organization, such as is claimed by the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society. Or any other other Religious Body on this earth today!
Where God's Organization is today, is very clear; and I used the Bible to show exactly where it is! Shiner
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Result 87 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: A Few Questions? (Read 15 times) |
bluestreak
Catechumen
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Joined: Feb 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 36
Karma: 3 | | Re: A Few Questions?
« Result #87 on Dec 17, 2009, 9:39am » | |
Shiner,
Genesis, Chapter 2
16
The LORD God gave man this order: "You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17
except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
Genesis Chapter 3
2
The woman answered the serpent: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden;
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it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.'"
4
But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die!
5
No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad."
Both of these statements are in the Bible. Even in the same book of the Bible. One of them is a lie. I choose to believe that the statement of Satan is a lie!
Relying on the words of Satan as truth are what caused this mess in the beginning. While these words:
Then he took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a single instant. The devil said to him, "I shall give to you all this power and their glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I may give it to whomever I wish.
{Luke 4:5,6}
are in the Bible, they came from the mouth of the deceiver and therefore cannot be relied upon with even the slightest degree of confidence to be true.
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Result 88 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: The Good News of the Kingdom! Is it authorized? (Read 45 times) |
shiner
Church Militant
member is offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 170
Karma: -11 | | Re: The Good News of the Kingdom! Is it authorized
« Result #88 on Dec 17, 2009, 7:40am » | |
Dec 16, 2009, 1:40pm, bluestreak wrote:Shiner,
If you don't mind my asking:
Were you RAISED as a Witness?
How long did you count yourself as a member of the WTBTS?
Were you an Elder?
Were you considered among the elect?
Pax,
Blue
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Bluestreak!
No! I wasn't raised as a witness! My parents was not affilliated with any Church, as I remember it. I guess you could say, we was a Godless lot. I'm still somewhat ambivelant, as to how I felt while I was a Witness. Let me put it this way. It was the unhappiest 21 years of my life, and I'm not sure now as I ever counted myself as a Witness, because I never felt that they counted me as one. As far as being considered anything by them, you can bet your socks it wasn't one of the elect for certain. I had my own way about me! I took guff from no one, and the Elders couldn't muscle me around like they could others. I drove Transport for many years, and that ,for some reason, has a way of toughening you up. So, when I'm pushed around, I still have a nasty way of pushing back. I have to somehow correct that, I know. My own wife who was, and still is a witness, called me an apostate, because I told her one time that the Governing Body was not the Faithful Slave. She's gone now! Divorced me! Up to date, that's me! Shiner
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Result 89 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: 1914 Generation Redefined (Read 15 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
member is online
Joined: Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 494
Karma: 10 | | Re: 1914 Generation Redefined
« Result #89 on Dec 16, 2009, 11:29pm » | |
Sorry, I had read that and forgotten. It is one of those "they had to change it sometime" so I fuzzed it out. This hasn't appeared in a Watchtower article yet though, has it?
They have to do something because the numbers are running the wrong way. I really don't think this will cause a huge shake up because everyone _knew_ it was coming in one way or another.
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Result 90 of 100:
| | Author | Topic: Have any appointments to office been made as yet? (Read 34 times) |
gkchesterton
Church Suffering
member is online
Joined: Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 494
Karma: 10 | | Re: Have any appointments to office been made as y
« Result #90 on Dec 16, 2009, 11:19pm » | |
Dec 16, 2009, 8:10pm, shiner wrote:Bluestreak!
Do you not believe what the Bible says? I clearly showed you using the Bible, that no appointments at all will be made until the Christ comes into Kingdom Power and literally takes those reigns of power, and rules over this earth. Now, both you and I know know for a fact that, that, has not occured as yet. I supplied you with three scriptures from the Bible that backed up everything I said; so I would ask you: What more do you need aside from what I gave you? The only one appointed at this present moment in time, is the Christ, and none others as yet. He is the only to follow now! If you're not following him, where do you think that you'll end up? Try the dry creek without a paddlle! Shiner |
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You supplied three scriptures that said no such thing and then he demonstrated out of Acts (and Timothy if I remember correctly) why you were wrong.
Amazingly he was able to do so in a paragraph with no rambling involved.
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Result 91 of 100:
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