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AuthorTopic: Words of the Consecration (Read 511 times)
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Words of the Consecration
« Thread Started on Jun 23, 2006, 3:52pm »
I hope I'm putting this topic in the right place, it's a bit of a crossover one.

During Mass at the consecration of the wine, the priest says Jesus' words thus -

'it will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven'

but in the Gospels it reads -

'for you and for many'

Is there any history as to when/why the word was changed?
:)
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bill210
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Re: Words of the Consecration
« Reply #1 on Jun 25, 2006, 12:51am »
The words "many" and "all" are used to include all of mankind and I don't know when the change of wording occured but It does not change the context in any way. The Magesterium or teaching authority of the Church would certainly have considered this.I hope this helps you.
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gkchesterton
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Re: Words of the Consecration
« Reply #2 on Jun 28, 2006, 10:09am »

Quote:
The words "many" and "all" are used to include all of mankind and I don't know when the change of wording occured but It does not change the context in any way. The Magesterium or teaching authority of the Church would certainly have considered this.I hope this helps you.
Bill


I believe this is also one of the phrases causing problems with the "translation controversy". There seems to be an understood difference between the use of wording in the mass and its use as an instructive ceremony and the use in the gospel where it has context to help it along. You might want to check the latin missal and whip out a dictionary to see how that reads.
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onpatmos
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Re: Words of the Consecration
« Reply #3 on Jun 28, 2006, 7:26pm »
Here it is in English:

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU,
AND DRINK FROM IT:
THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND
EVERLASTING COVENANT.
IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU
AND FOR ALL MEN
SO THAT SINS ARE FORGIVEN.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

Here it is in Latin.

ACCÌPITE ET BIBITE
EX EO OMNES:
HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINES MEI
NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI,
QUI PRO VOBIS
ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR
IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM.
HOC FÀCITE
IN MEAN COMMEMORATIONEM.

(From here - http://www.latinliturgy.com/nomass.html#first_reading)
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Re: Words of the Consecration
« Reply #4 on Jul 1, 2006, 5:38pm »
Dictionary translations!

Many - multi
all - quislibet, omnis, cunctus (most likely 'omnis' in an ecclesiastical setting - see the Creed)

So does this mean the word only changed when the Latin rite stopped being used? Even the translation on the webpage isn't strictly correct.

There is a small part of me also wondering whether it was done to counter the limited atonement view of the Calvinists - but how it is worded now is open to the suggestion of universal salvation.
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anne
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Re: Words of the Consecration
« Reply #5 on Nov 7, 2009, 5:58am »
Have been reading Jeremiah 33. came across verse 17 says here For thus says the Lord David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel . and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presesnce to offer burnt offerings to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices for all time.FOR ALL TIME what do these scriptures mean to RCS please.

also. verse 19. The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah
20. Thus says the Lord If any of you could break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night. so that day and night would not come at their appointed time .
21. only then could my covenant with my servant David be broken , so that he would not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with my ministers the levites.
22.Just as the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured , so I will increase the offspring of my servant David and the Levites who minister to me,
23,The word of the Lord came to jeremiah have you not observed how these people say" The two families that the Lord chose have been rejected by him, and how they hold my people in such contempt that they no longer regard them as a nation ?
25 Thus says the Lord Only if I had not established my covenant with day and night and the ordinances of heaven and earth
26. would I reject the offspring of jacob and of my servant david and not choose any of his descendants as rulers over the offspring of Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob.For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy upon them

Any thoughts?
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anne
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Re: Words of the Consecration
« Reply #6 on Nov 7, 2009, 5:59am »
Any thoughts please on hebrews 10 ?
Thanks.
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