Was Rutherford a spirit medium?

[anne]

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/rutherford_spirit_meduim.htm

[jimwhitney]

Hi Anne,

I think it is unlikely that J. F. Rutherford (JFR) was necessarily a spirit medium. He simply believed that whatever teachings he developed were guided by Jehovah through his organizational arrangement ... including the relay process of the angels as messengers ... the author of the aticle used the word 'inaudible' communication to characterize this view. A true medium has (or claims to have) 'audible' communications. I think the author of the article you cited is stretching logic to make such a claim.

Many Christians have similar thoughts and feelings in their private understandings of scripture ... sometimes accurate and sometimes not ... but this does not mean that the demons are deceiving such Christians.

JFR was a flawed egomaniac ... and he taught false doctrine ... but I do not believe that as a human he was any more or less misguided than any other self-proclaimed religious leader. He simply had no real authority from God.

I did an extensive review of the 1918 trial of JFR and his seven Watchtower co-defendants wherein the Society paints the event as fulfillment of prophecy, and the trial as a tool of Satan who used the Clergy to railroad JFR and companions into prison. The actual trial demonstrates how far the Society (and JFR himself) went in order to deceive the JWs by spinning the truth to mean something very different from factual events.

If the Catholicxjw board shows any interest, I will repost my JFR series for your enjoyment ... the whole 1918 trial is a study in just how flawed and deliberate the Society is in lying to the masses of JWs.

The Devil does not need to use JFR or subsequent Watchtower leaders-teachers as mediums ... he has them well in control just being who they are.

Jim W.

[anne]

www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/

Hi Jim Some ex JW friends of mine have researched the WT,especially Masonic and occult involvement.
It was brought out into the open some time ago and the WT admitted to some of it in their magazines.

Johanas Greber and all kinds of chanelling are wrong so is necromancy,divination.

Tom is wrong in saying the WT is not a cult ,it is.IMO.

I would be intereested to read what you have
thanks!

[anne]

Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit ,to teach us guide us and be with us always.

[jimwhitney]

Hi Anne,

The word 'cult' invokes a lot of meanings to a lot of people. By some definitions one could even argue that the Christian faith is a cult. Lipton's 8 criteria for a cult are close to what I define as a cult. He was an expert in this field, as was Margaret Sanger of UC Berkley.

The JWs do fall into all 8 criteria for a cult ... on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst, perhaps the JWs are a 3 or 4. They are moderate compared to extreme cults like the Branch Davidians of Jim Jones Peoples Temple. Once one understands that there are degrees of cults, much as there are degrees of criminal activity, then it becomes easier to understand how the JWs fit the definition so well, and yet are not as hard core as other more dangerous groups.

I will dig around and post the Rutherford series ... it is a real wake up call to how dishonest the Society is. I had to post it in a series because the pre-trial part is long, but the most interesting. I will try to condense it.

Advance clues: JFR and the other 7 officers were never "exonerated" as the Society has always claimed ... and they were guilty of violating the law ... and other serious issues.

Stay tuned for more:

Jim W.

[gkchesterton]

This is a point in which I will have to disagree with both of you. Cult is a word tossed around that has no inherent value. It is, in point of fact, demeaning. While there are organizations with a negative purpose, such as Jim Jones, I don't think the Witnesses can be accused of that. They believe they are doing the right thing. That they are unwilling to examine the evidence is sad, but does not presuppose that they have no critical reasoning ability at all or that they are blind followers.

Using the word "cult" diminishes our own responsibility. It removes our free will. It makes us a little less than human. The eight qualities can be applied in some pretty arbitrary ways.

As for the masonic influence, if there was one it was attached to Russel and not Rutherford and was a product of the time. The Founding Fathers were involved in masonry. It has had its off and on "cool" periods (including one in the fifties and during the late 1800's). It is, on the whole and in its American version, relatively harmless and more than a little silly (the continental European version is a slightly different flavor which explains the Catholic reaction to it). It is, in short, a reason to dress in sheep skin, use wacky handshakes that are now consigned to the "hood", and drink alcoholic beverages.

[anne]

www.4witness.org/wfjhome/ministry_team.php

A friend of mine david hall and his wife who were JWs for 48 +52 years.David has done a lot of research into masons and the JWS.
Catholics have been opposed to the Masons ,has anything changed?

FAIR and many other Ministries also the RCC know that the WT is a cult....
The first thing I was told from FAIR.

Do they still have 'pass the parcel' rituals instead of the Eucharist,Is that Witchcraft?

On a scale of 1-10 FAIR said they rated 8.

How did the RCC view those who believed Jesus was created ? were they heretics?

Would you say JWs are dangerous because they allow people to die,(No Blood)
AJWRB is a site worth looking at.

[anne]

How does the RCC view talking to the dead?

[NanaR]

Jun 27, 2008 16:13:27 GMT -5 anne said:

How does the RCC view talking to the dead?

Hey Anne:

The Catechism says this:

www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2116.htm

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2117.htm

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

I found this chapter in an old Catholic Bible study booklet to be very much to the point as well:

I am the Lord Thy God, Reverend Gerald C. Treacy, S.J., Copyright 1939, pages 28 - 31

T H E word superstition means placing above (super-above) or giving a thing a position it has no right to hold. To believe in charms, spells, omens, dreams, chain prayers-all this is superstition.

Magic, witchcraft, spiritism, fortune telling, seriously indulged in, fall under the heading of superstition. Superstition has its roots in two human motives, the motive of fear and the motive of curiosity. It is wrong to imagine that only ignorant people are prone to superstition. It is right to conclude that irreligious people are superstitious. It is also true to say that people who at heart'are religious but who have not a sufficient knowledge of their religion are inclined to superstition.

Spiritism

Spiritism which was rampant after the last war and which today claims many adherents is probably the most widespread of all superstitions. This practice is an endeavor to communicate with the souls of the dead. It takes many forms. Books without number have been written about it. Claims innumerable have been made in its favor. The outstanding fact however is this. Nothing has been proved to show that any one has talked with a soul that has left this life. Verbal or written messages have come through at different spiritualistic meetings, but the identity of the messenger has never been proved. So much for the claims of spiritism. But do not sowe wonderful things occur at a spiritualistic seance? They most assuredly do. It is both unfair and senseless to deny this. How then explain these happenings? There are three explanations. Trickery is one explanation. Many dishonest mediums have been exposed who for years admitted that they had duped the followers of the cult. Another explanation is that there are psychic forces or powers possessed by certain individuals that enable them to do things that the ordinary person cannot do. We do not know all there is to know about the workings of the human mind. We probably never shall. As we do not know all the powers hidden in the stone, or the soil or the blade of grass. We have only recently dhvered the cosmic ray and we do not know what it is except that it is a great force hidden in nature. We know the great power of electricity and we do not know what it is. And so for the undoubted psychic powers that at times reveal themselves in a spiritualistic medium. The last explanation of clearly proven spiritualistic happenings is this. The devil is capable of possessing a medium and using the medium as an instrument for his own purpose. His own purpose is to dishonor God. A false religion does this. So it may be surely said that in some of the results of spiritualistic meetings the devil has had a hand. Father Charles De Heredia, S.J., a student of spiritism for many years gives this rule for interpreting spiritualistic phenomena: "First look for fraud, then for the tricks of the magician and finally for Satan." As a matter of fact Father De Heredia duplicated many a marvel of spiritism by his clever and magician methods. When we speak of the magician today we do not mean what the Bible means. For by a magician we mean an entertainer who amuses by sleight-of-hand or card tricks. But the magician in the biblical sense means one who performs marvels by the aid of Satan. As the book of Exodus states in the time of Moses:
"And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: When Pharao shall say to you: Show signs, thou shalt say to Aaron: Take thy rod and cast it down before Pharao and it shall be turned into a serpent. And Aaron took the rod before Pharao and it was turned into a serpent. And Pharao called the wise men and the magicians and they also by Egyptian enchantments and certain secrets did in like manner. And they every one cast down their rods and they were turned into serpents; but Aaron's rod devoured their rods"
(Exodus, vii. 18-12). What Aaron had done with the help of God the magicians of Egypt did with the help of Satan. That is magic.

Witchcraft

Witchcraft means invoking the devil for evil purposes and generally to work injury. The witch of Endor whose story is told in the first book of Kings called up the spirit of Samuel to King Saul (1 Kings xxviii. 7). This is witchcraft as the Bible describes it. In Shakespeare's "Macbeth" we have the three witches enter upon the scene to work upon the ambition of their victim and so lead him to his doom.

Astrology

Astrology is the art of foretelling life's future by studying the stars. Belief in omens means judging of the future by things of mere chance, as the flight or the song of birds or the lines in the hand. Belief in dreams explains itself.

The catalogue of superstition is a long one. It is a tale of human fear, curiosity, hope. On its darkest pages I read how low man can fall as he wanders farther and farther away from God. Gripped by this sin he sinks not to the level of the brute but lower than the brute. Making unto himself false gods he is a pitiful figure. The truly Catholic mind abhors superstition in any and every form. For the truly Catholic mind is conscious of God's presence in all the ways of life, knowing with David: The Lord is my shepherd, and I shall want nothing. He hath set me in a place of pasture. He hath brought me up on the waters of refreshment; He hath converted my soul. He hath led me on the paths of justice for His own Names sake. For though I should walk in the midst of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for Thou art with me. . . . And Thy mercy will follow me all the days of my life.

To sum up. The honor we pay to God stands alone. It is adoration in the strict meaning of the word. For it is the acknowledgement of God as the Supreme Being. It is His right and He commands it. He commands it through the gentle whisper of the voice of conscience. He commands it amid the thunders of Sinai. He commands it by the clear teaching of His Beloved Son who placed His Church upon earth to repeat, teach and explain His Command. Faith, hope, charity, religion-this is man's complete answer to that command. And in that answer faithfully given man finds his happiness in life upon earth and secures his eternal destiny in heaven "where eye hath not seen nor ear heard nor hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive the ineffable bliss that God hath prepared for those who love Him."

I really like this explanation, because it is clear an unapologetic. So whether Rutherford consulted spirit mediums or not I do not know -- but the Roman Catholic Church is very clear that Spiritism and conjuring up the dead is not for Christians.

PM me if you would like to read the entire booklet that I quote above.

Pax,

Ruth

[anne]

www.seanet.com/~raines/greber.html

When I was in the RCC anything to do with the occult was forbidden, and abomination.

Ruth ,the watctower is full of occult things.

[anne]

Prophetic truth from the watchtower has failed....they say:

1.They are the one true religion.
2.They are God's prophets today
3. They are directed by God's angels and what they say will come to pass. [WT 1./4/72.]

In the WT Jan: 1st 2000 Serving with the Watchman they refer back to their past history and mention some of the pagan and demonic beliefs they once held,and their fascination with Pyramidology

They briefly refer to Bible Students in the 1920s wearing a pin featuring a cross and crown emblem .This was used in Freemasonry.and adopted by Russell
They admit they used demonic signs and stone monuments for 39 years.

[javeca]

Jul 14, 2008 8:35:45 GMT -5 anne said:

They briefly refer to Bible Students in the 1920s wearing a pin featuring a cross and crown emblem .This was used in Freemasonry.and adopted by Russell.

Okay, this is one myth, I constantly find, and constantly have to correct.

Russel was NEVER a Free Mason, as a matter fact he used to preach against the Free Masons. The Cross and Crown Emblem is not part of Free Masonry, it has been never been used by the Knights Templar, et al.