Converting a JW

[universal]

Im really under pressure having a JW as a girlfriend. Im really willing to stay with her (long term) but the differences are keeping us apart. She says she will only marry a fellow JW which troubles the both of us, so she is recommending me a bible study. BTW, im a new CFD or apologetic, but seem to have limited views regarding biblical arguments (our bible studies sometimes lead to debate LOL) but still have a hard time defending it. I guess i just really need to learn more, so i hope i can get answers from this forum.

BTW, this forum is God-given. LOL. thank you for having this site. its perfect for my Witness witnessing.

[universal]

Her parents are encouraging me also to have personal bible studies with them. I'm afraid of jumping in without adequate knowledge and hit-backs.

Recently, we happened to bump with two of their "Circuit Overseer's" while me and my GF were dating, both of us became nervous thinking that she may be put under question being with an "outsider". This incident led the both of us to a discussion, is dis-fellowship really right? the tension i felt even though im catholic was extreme, thinking what she would be subject to if the CO's were to find out she has a Catholic BF.

But she was still very eager to explain, that its a form of punishment and she would be willing to accept it. (obviously scared of the idea yet hiding it). She hits me repetitively with the verse "the congregation should be kept away from spots and blemishes" "for the kingdom of God is Holy" claiming that this is proof of dismemberment. Why doesn't the CC dis-fellow "unclean" members?

[czwe101]

I'm in the same situation brother, I've been a involved my girlfriend for 5 yrs , I want to tie the knot but she not willing to convert and become a Catholic. I have been Baptized and went as far being Confirmed. I'm hundred Catholic I'd like my children to do so as well enjoy birthdays, christmas the works, Please people help us here some kind ammo or something

[nick1235]

Gentlemen,

You trying to convert your girlfriends to the truth is commendable and as a christian you should continue in those efforts. It is a very difficult road in what you are attempting and you might have to face facts that they may never convert. In that instance DO NOT foresake the sacrament of marriage in the Holy Catholic Church. I have done that, been there and still struggling.

I have not posted alot here on this forum but come here quite often. 17 years ago I was also at the same cross road. I was dating a JW's for quite some time (off and on) and having similar discussion with no resolution. We both were not practicing our faith to the fullest and ended up getting married in a non-denominational church and today have three children in a spiritually divided house with same discussion and alot more tension in the house than sometimes I can bare. You may think that you can work these things out but when it comes to faith and the Real Truth most times JW's are unreasonable and unwilling to consider truths of the Catholic faith. Now we have children involved in our differences and I never realized how difficult an inter-religious marriage (especially with JW's) could be. The constant accusations, false claims and strawman arguements are beyond my comprehension on how anyone can stand by this religion. My wife is very anti-catholic and continually verbally abuses the catholic church because of what she has been taught. Although my wife knows I am the spiritual head of the household and I do take the children to church, she always works behind my back to teach the watchtower liturature and other anti-catholic propaganda. She is a stay at home mom and has alot more time with the kids. She sometimes tells them that I am forcing them to do things they don't want to do (ie church) and restricting them from going to the kingdom hall, trying to make me look like the bad guy. One thing I was afraid of (and tried to mitigate) was putting our kids in the middle of our differences on religion. Putting a child in that situation is very difficult for them, they feel they are going against the one's they love the most if they choose either side. All of this turmoil though has helped me in my own spritiual growth, I have learned alot of things about our faith and know it is the truth. I wish I had done it sooner. Don't get me wrong I love my wife but I am tired of doing things alone with out a partner and no spiritual support that every man needs from their spouse. My wife will say the same thing of me in not giving her the spiritual support and I will admit I cannot compromise and support their misguided beliefs. As time has passed we tend to do less and less together and she refuses to associate with my side of the family at all (since they are Catholic).

Universal, you said the tension you felt when you saw the CO was extreme. well times that by 10,000 and that may come close to the tension you will feel if both of you are not on the same spiritual plane. Even the simple things in life become so difficult. Think about your future children and what you want for them spiritually? everlasting life with Jesus with the Holy Catholic Church or the Watchtower organization.

I can share with you what I know but beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing (they may talk nicities but there words are venemous)... do not compromise your love for God and the Catholic Faith.

Good luck and God Bless

[universal]

Thank you so much, I too am a hundred percent catholic, baptized, and then confirmed at 7. I feel sad for my dad though, a protestant but let his children be catholic, my mom's one though.

I can really foresee what is in store for us, i have noticed they really are strict regarding birthdays, Christmas, etc... i mean, i cannot imagine my children lulling during their birthdays, it's supposed to be an appreciation of life, or even any holidays for that matter which they will miss! It would most likely end up to a fight between us whether we should put a tree during Christmas or not. I would really wish my kids to enjoy life as much as possible, not preach all day long, all because their organization wants to, we do have missionaries to do it for us. And i dont want them to live in constant fear of being dis-fellowshipped or being locked away and are "discouraged" to talk to "outsiders". I know very well their practices, and many are faulty in my views, and im very much able to defend my own, in limited topics only. She already given me a lot of their publications "awake" "watchtower" and "what the Bible really teaches" and i see plenty of "hate" statements referring to our Church, as you said nick, anti-catholic. i'm just afraid in facing-off with her father, an elder in their congregation who she recommends to give me personal bible studies.

Dont worry brothers, I stand firm in my Catholic faith, thanks BTW nick for giving me an insight to the situation, Yes, very true, most JW's in my case my GF is also stubborn regarding her faith, as well as I too LOL. Both of us are very close-minded and are not willing to accept each other's views, so we tried to take a formal approach to the situation by having her father "teach" me, unfortunately for me, i dont have a father who can teach her also LOL. so im looking for every resort possible, to teach her catholic views. I wish to keep this thread active to the constant help I may ask.

[NanaR]

Just a couple of points for you Catholic gentlemen who are dating JW girls:

You may or may not know that JW baptism is not accepted by the Catholic Church. So unless your girlfriend gets baptized as a Catholic or has been baptized at some point by another Christian faith that baptizes under the Holy Trinity, then you cannot have a sacramental Catholic wedding. (No other sacrament can be received until after a person is validly baptized).

If your girlfriend gets baptized by any faith other than the Witnesses, then she will be considered apostate by the Witnesses if she is a baptized Witness now. If she is not a baptized Witness now and she gets baptized by another faith, she will not technically be considered apostate but she will most probably be shunned anyway by many Witnesses. This could include her immediate family members.

If a Catholic leaves the faith and joins another religion, their Catholic family is saddened and may even be angry but they usually still treat the person as family. When a baptized JW leaves that faith and joins another, their Witness family is told to shun them -- act as if the person is dead. My only sister has refused to have any contact at all with me since I was baptized as a Catholic last year. None of my numerous cousins will have anything to do with me either, and my Witness neighbors pretend I'm invisible when I pass them on the street. This is reality.

There are huge barriers to converting a Jehovah's Witness to any other faith, and the barriers are the greatest to converting to the Catholic faith.

The primary goal of your girlfriend's JW family is to convert YOU.

It is certainly not impossible for a JW to become Catholic, as many of us have. But there are high costs involved in terms of loss of family and lifetime friends and companions. For me, the one Holy Catholic Church and our Lord Jesus Christ are more than worth the loss. But my conversion was my choice and not complicated by external factors such as wanting to please a boyfriend.

I will pray for all of you.

Pax,

Ruth

[tcabeen]

I can verify everything that Ruth has said, in spades. Disfellowshipping is an unbelievably divisive doctrine. So if anyone is contemplating marrying a JW, be aware that unless he or she is willing to turn his or her back on any and all JW relatives and friends, or unless you, the Catholic, are willing to at least pretend to be a JW, strife, division and heartbreak will most likely be part of your life from now on.

I now have no living JW relatives. I am an only child, and both my JW parents shunned and disowned me. My wife has three brothers, two of whom are JWs. She has about 25 JW relatives. She is from a big Italian family, and she was very close to them for her entire life. Not a single one of them have spoken with her since 1983, when we were disfellowshipped.

When her JW brother Larry's wife was killed in a car accident three years ago, Gloria send a nice card and also called to leave a message of comfort and condolences on her brother's loss. He was not at home, so she left the message and her number on his answering machine. He called back and told her never to call again. Larry is not a very active JW, average at best.

After we were disfellowshipped, not only did her JW relatives not contact us again, but they refused to attend any family gathering which we attended. None of them have spoken to us since that time, even when Gloria's mother, and later her father, died. For all practical purposes, we both lost all of our relatives when we left the WT organization.

If a prospective spouse remains an active JW, of course, he or she may not be disfellowshipped. But if your mate ever attends Mass with you, or celebrates Christmas or someone's birthday, or stands up for the singing of the national anthem, or needs and accepts a blood transfusion (God forbid), and the elders find out about it, he or she will be subject to judicial action, which could, if in their opinion he or she is "unrepentant," lead to disfellowshipping.

I would urge you in the strongest terms to reconsider the advisability of such an unequal yoking. If a prospective wife is interested in becoming Catholic, I would also strongly recommend that you put any romance on hold and wait until she has been through RCIA and received into the Church before you pursue a serious romance with her. That way, the pain she will have to endure caused by the WT teachings will be properly seen as being the result of religious differences only, not by you or the marriage.

With best wishes and prayers for guidance from on high,

Tom Cabeen

[gkchesterton]

I'm going to join with Tom and Ruth on this. However I'm also going to be a wee bit nit picky, so I ask that you bear with me.

First, in regards to celebrations. We should all be content to serve God alone. Jesus' is clear that we are slaves that become Sons. To that end as a Witness, and I maintain that position today, I didn't miss anything by not celebrating my birthday or in celebrating Christmas. I really never felt I missed anything. I _do_ enjoy having Christmas with my kids now (complete with smuggled tree per previous thread) but I didn't _miss_ anything if you can understand what I mean.

As to preaching all the time, I missed nothing there either. As members of the Church Universal we are _aided_ by missionaries, however, as His Holiness John-Paul II pointed out, we all bear the responsibility to preach especially through action. From JP II's encyclical Redemptoris Missio:
"The first form of witness is the very life of the missionary, of the Christian family, and of the ecclesial community, which reveal a new way of living. The missionary who, despite all his or her human limitations and defects, lives a simple life, taking Christ as the model, is a sign of God and of transcendent realities. But everyone in the Church, striving to imitate the Divine Master, can and must bear this kind of witness; in many cases it is the only possible way of being a missionary."

He further expands on the thought in reminding that the totality of the Church Militant is responsible for preaching. It is not something that should (falsely) be relegated to a certain class.

I have to admit that I'm flabbergasted that her dad is an elder. In every congregation that I served on I would have put personal pressure on him to end the relationship or step down.

[universal]

well, regarding what you said "you can live without it" I just related it with my GF, noticing now in college where most girls are turning 18, she really feels left out, and openly cried before me saying she's jealous of us having birthdays especially for girls, having debuts.

for me, they are childhood-deprived not having been able to experience these things. Opening gifts on Christmas, having children's parties in birthdays etc..

my primary concern for now is how to "preach to her" or how to rebutt when asked about catholic doctrines, converting her is not yet my mission now, it is my long-term goal, im just at the first step which is informing her our doctrines. Yes, gkchesterton, im trying to be a missionary for her, because, my concern for converting her is not because of romance or the intimacy, but also, i find it a spiritual need to "show" her and her parents and especially her father the ways of our Church, biblically and historically.

yes, it is hard having a GF with an elder as a dad, its just funny how her father treats me as a son, i mean, among other boys he knows in their congregation, he's getting more peronal with me! im still stunned with the thought that im catholic and her father has a loving treatment toward me.

Actually, we kept the relationship hidden for several months until the time that she could not take it anymore that she had to confess to her father. Her father turned us down, but feeling sad for his daughter (my GF cried constantly because of our separation) decided to put us on a short leash. Now we have been together for almost 1/2 of a year (under surveillance from her father of course!) and along the way, Her father and i became closer too.

good thing though her dad knows how to keep secrets, actually, he's hiding "us" from "them" if you know what i mean. with what i mentioned before that we met their CO while dating, her dad after being asked, would just simply say: "he's just her college buddy" LOL. what a twist. but somwething that im just not aching for is her dad's persistence or "hinting" to converting me.

Godbless brothers/sisters in faith, thanks your sharing.

[mantim]

Gotta agree with nick1235 on this one. look before you leap. If you are in scriptural debate, ask her who set the canon of the New Testament? Answer: The Catholic Church in the year 397 A.D.

Ask her to prove that the Authority of scripture interpretation/commentary was given by Jesus to the Protestants in the year 1522 (Split completed). Answer: If Authority was transferred, why did it go to 33,820 different denominations (in the year of 2000 estimates). Isn't that contrary to what Jesus says, "I AM the way, the truth, the life." Emphasize the fact that there is nothing plural about it. Wouldn't there be just ONE Protestant religion then? not 33,000+ ?

Don't settle for trivial 'minimizing the facts' answers either. Insist that she adopt a fair and uniform belief system. For instance, They obstain from blood but not fat. The Old Testament forbids the consumption of fat also. Why isn't this belief uniform? or, the belief that 144,000 anointed ones go to Heaven. These scriptures are taken litterally by the Witnesses, all scripture on Hell and the discriptions of Hell are disregarded or said to symbolic. Why? Ask for an answer of sound logic and intellect. Don' except alot of 'soft shoeing and long blathery answers."

Try and obtain a C.D. of "The story of the Bible." Its from www. saint Joseph's Communication (google it). If you can't get a fair response, then, "look before you leap." There is a very fine line between Faith and Pride.

Peace of Jesus be with you,

mantim

[RoadtoEmmaus]

universal,

I've got to hand it to you. You are stronger than I. My wife if a JW and my 18 year old daughter is studying. She has a Catholic BF for about 14 months now. My bride interjects from time to time about how they are too close.

She did say last month that she missed Christmas. She has also been communicating with a few more of her friends from High School. My wife is livid.

You asked about why the CC doesn't DF or excommunicate people more readily.

Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Church understands that the wheat will be separated from the chaff. The goats will be separated from the sheep. Yet, it will be Christ as judge to separate. Excommunication can have eternal consequences. Yet, not excommunicating does not exempt one from judgment.

This is a heavy burden, being in a relationship with a JW.

Prayers,

[gkchesterton]

Dec 18, 2009 15:01:43 GMT -5 RoadtoEmmaus said:

universal,

I've got to hand it to you. You are stronger than I. My wife if a JW and my 18 year old daughter is studying. She has a Catholic BF for about 14 months now. My bride interjects from time to time about how they are too close.

She did say last month that she missed Christmas. She has also been communicating with a few more of her friends from High School. My wife is livid.

You asked about why the CC doesn't DF or excommunicate people more readily.

Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Church understands that the wheat will be separated from the chaff. The goats will be separated from the sheep. Yet, it will be Christ as judge to separate. Excommunication can have eternal consequences. Yet, not excommunicating does not exempt one from judgment.

This is a heavy burden, being in a relationship with a JW.

Prayers,

If I may Blue one of the other reasons is everything that happened from the 1500's to the 1700's. Prior to this point excommunication had some sort of universal meaning and could in theory be universally applied. With the coming of the Reformation that universal meaning in the West was lost. In addition in the years leading up to and during excommunications could be seen as a political weapon such as when Venice was placed under interdict in 1605 (might be 1606...can't remember).

By the 1700's the Wars of Religion and the Enlightenment had worn down everyone's desire for quick excommunications and the formal practice died down such that it only found extensive use in the piestic protestant communities that eventually made America home.

In summary then its is used less because of the fear that it wouldn't act to its remedial purpose (that is excommunication is _supposed_ to be corrective) and would be seen as belligerent and or political. As the world becomes more secular though this argument is loosing favor since a bright line is once again easy to draw.

[RoadtoEmmaus]

GK,

Thanks for the History lesson.

I do find myself at odds desiring the ex-communication of politicians that support abortion while claiming to be Catholic.

It gets under my skin to see them processing to Communion when I cannot.

[gkchesterton]

Dec 21, 2009 12:23:32 GMT -5 RoadtoEmmaus said:

I do find myself at odds desiring the ex-communication of politicians that support abortion while claiming to be Catholic.

It gets under my skin to see them processing to Communion when I cannot.

While I realize it is a theological mine field, I would suggest drawing comfort from the imprecatory psalms (Lewis in particular had a problem with them; this is just one of those cases where Lewis was wrong ).

From Psalm 58
6 O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
7 Let them vanish like water that runs away;
when he aims his arrows, let them be blunted.
8 Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime,
like the stillborn child who never sees the sun.
9 Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns,
whether green or ablaze, may he ssweep them away!3

10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
surely there is a God who judges on earth.”

[jdobbinsphd]

Aug 24, 2009 11:07:42 GMT -5 universal said:

Her parents are encouraging me also to have personal bible studies with them. I'm afraid of jumping in without adequate knowledge and hit-backs.

Recently, we happened to bump with two of their "Circuit Overseer's" while me and my GF were dating, both of us became nervous thinking that she may be put under question being with an "outsider". This incident led the both of us to a discussion, is dis-fellowship really right? the tension i felt even though im catholic was extreme, thinking what she would be subject to if the CO's were to find out she has a Catholic BF.

But she was still very eager to explain, that its a form of punishment and she would be willing to accept it. (obviously scared of the idea yet hiding it). She hits me repetitively with the verse "the congregation should be kept away from spots and blemishes" "for the kingdom of God is Holy" claiming that this is proof of dismemberment. Why doesn't the CC dis-fellow "unclean" members?

I just joined the group so this reply may have been overtaken by events, but the situation is one many face, so I thought I would reply anyway. This situation is similar to that encountered with Mormons. To address this, you have to understand scripture very well. Get a study bible. I recommend the one edited by Scott Hahn, The Ignatius Study Bible, published by Ignatius Press. There are also some good, small, books for responding to JWs from TAN Books. You have to be prepared and confident. Their basic approach is proof-texting. They take one text from scripture, usually totally out of context, and try to use it as an argument. You can defeat this easily if you know scripture. All of scripture is the inspired word of God and so it is all true and self-consistent. Think of scripture as a system, not independent pieces. It all works together, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Find out from your GF what her issues are with Catholics, or what she bases her beliefs on. Once you understand that, you can craft your reply. Do not approach it as trying to convert her to Catholicism, but as seeking truth together. Since the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, this will lead you both to a deeper appreciation and love for the Catholic Church. If you have specific questions, or don't understand something, please ask. Please.

Jim Dobbins, Ph.D.
yorked.podomatic.com