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Post by catholicxjw on Jun 9, 2006 2:24:05 GMT -5
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Post by anne on May 10, 2009 5:55:37 GMT -5
They don't like anything that resembles catholicism, neither do other denoms,
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Post by shiner on Dec 3, 2009 15:55:20 GMT -5
I'm wondetring if the reason they deny is because of the following:
I'm wondering if those, who believe that Jesus was God, would mind too-terribly answering me a few questions, that, have, to say the least, completely stymied me.
Was it to be true, that Jesus was God, then why does the Bible, contradict that idea in so many places?
For instance, why did Jesus say, he didn't know the day and the hour, in Matthew 24:36? God would know the day and hour!
Then, too, why did he say, that the word he taught wasn't his at John 7:16? If he was god, the word would have been his!
Why did he say, he was under the command of his Father at John 12:49,50? If you're under the command of someone, you're subservient to that one, and lesser than the one giving the command.
Why did he himself tell us that he came to do his Fathers will at John 5:30? Was he to be God, it would have been his own will.
Why did he call his Father God, at John 5:18? Are there really two God's?
Why did he tell us that all the judging had been committed to him at John 5:22? Who was it, that committed it to him?
Why did he say he had works assigned to him by his Father at John 5:36?
Why did he say, that no one had seen the face and form {figure} of his Father nor heard his voice, at John 5:37? They all saw the face and form of Jesus. Heard his voice.
Why did he say, he could not appoint the High calling, at Matthew 20:23?
Why did he say that only one was good at Matthew 19:17?
Why did he tell us that he made his Fathers name known, at John 17:6,26? Not his own! Wouldn't Jesus being God, make his own name known?
Why did he he call his Father My God, at John 20:17?
Why did John say at John 20:31 Jesus is the Christ the Son of God?
Why did Peter call Jesus, you are the Christ the Son of the Living God at Matthew 16:16- Mark 8:29? Didn't Peter know what he was talking about?
Why does the Bible tell us the demons knew him to be the Christ, at Mark 1:34? Who would know better than them?
Why was he called, the Christ of Jehovah at Luke 2:26?
Why did the demons say, you are the Son of God at Luke 4:41?
Why did Martha say, you are the Son of God, at John 11:27?
Why does Paul tell us, he entered in before the person of God for us, at Hebrews 9:24? Can God enter in before God?
Why did Paul tell us, at Hebrews 7:25 that he's always alive to plead for us? Does God, plead with God?
Why does Paul tell us, he is a mediator between God and men at 1 Timothy 2:5,6? Can you be a mediator and at the same time be God?
Why did Paul say, peace from God and Christ at Romans 1:7?
Why did Paul tell is to have the same mental attitude as Christ at Romans 15:5? Then throw out the question, Who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, at 1 Corinthians 2:16? Why did he say, but we do have the mind of Christ. Why did he differentiate between the two minds? Seems to me, they are two entirely different minds, from this.
"Peace from God our Father and Christ." {1 Corinthians 1:3
Why did he pray, our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified, let your kingdom come let your will be done at Matthew 6:9-13? Why not his own name? Why not his own will?
I would, most greatly appreciate it, was someone to go through this compiled list, and systematically supply an answer to each question raised by this list. In the order presented. Now, was it to be true, that your teaching that Jesus was God, is really true, you will have absolutely no problem in addressing all of the questions raised here; and, if you really can, you will certainly set my mind at ease. I, as I said, would be more than grateful for that.
Why does the Bible state all of the preceding verses of scripture?
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Post by gkchesterton on Dec 5, 2009 17:26:00 GMT -5
I'm wondering if those, who believe that Jesus was God, would mind too-terribly answering me a few questions, that, have, to say the least, completely stymied me. Fair enough. I held out for a long time but eventually went Trinitarian. We would disagree on this. I will not claim that the Bible isn't fearfully ambiguous about this. That is why we need to read it with the "mind of the fathers". Reading outside of the community that it was created in can cause problems. Jesus the Man doesn't though. This isn't so much a Trinitarian position but it has to do with the two natures of Christ, which, even as an Arian, you have to deal with. For example, though brilliant, we don't see him act in anyway unlike a human child. He doesn't, for example, construct monuments as a two year old. That is, even in the Arian position, confusing. It appears that in order to fully adopt both His divine nature and His human nature that at some points knowledge wasn't available to His human nature. If we accept that then this isn't a Trinitarian proof text one way or the other. No it wouldn't have been. You are, just as I did, confusing the person of the Father with the Person of the Word. Trinitarianism supposes three separate persons and one _nature_. These persons are defined by their roles within the Godhead. A Trinitarian also believes in the "Monarchy of the Father". The Father is the "arche" or origin (not quite begining since that implies a chronological effect) of both the Spirit and the Word. You are not less, you are subject to. This is a perversion of the idea of power that Jesus directly addresses with his followers when he discusses the problem of, "lording it over," one another. A king is still a man and of the same dignity even if he has a different kind of authority. His Will is the Father's since he is the perfect representation of such. You are also continuing to assume that his service lessens him, which isn't true, as it would also lessen us. Think about it, if true Satan's rebellion made him _greater_. No, but Trinitarian theology is not harmed since the Father is God, but only one of the Person's of God. God the Father. Because that is the role of the Persons in question. Here is where we run into some serious trouble for the Arian. Consider the claim Jesus is making here (and a claim that the whole Chruch has supported) in v. 38. All the Scriptures are about him. Every single one. Then he claims to know what is in their hearts, a claim reserved to God in the Prophets. So the Bible is about Him (God) and he knows hearts (God). You should note that John is the most Trinitarian friendly of the gospels. Because that belongs to the Monarchy of the Father, which Trintarianism doesn't disagree with. Interesting note, Jesus never claims that he does not posses the title "Good" and goes from hence to authoritatively describing how the commandments should be understood. Cheeky that. And how did he make it known? He founded a religion called "Christian". So he's either a failure or there is an intimate relationship between the two. Again you're misunderstanding the concept of the Persond of the Godhead. What he said in no way invalidates Trinitarian thought. In fact that same chapter throws a bigger obstacle in the path of Arians later on with the exclamation of Thomas. Because he is?  Notice in that same verse life is granted via Jesus' name. That is Jesus becomes a source of life...which is God's alone to give. Indeed he did. I'm going to start skipping now because this is becoming repetitive (which isn't your fault, its the fault of your training)... You seem to need a basic understanding of the Persons. You aren't so much arguing against the Trinity as showing you don't know much about it. You have to remember that in a Trinitarian universe god is three people. To avoid the problem of polytheism those three people inhabit the same nature. Anyone of the three is "God" then, though the title is most commonly reserved for the Father. While all three are equal they willingly inhabit different roles. You have to start from there before you deal with proof texts. |
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Post by shiner on Dec 17, 2009 16:23:34 GMT -5
GT!
So! You went Trinitarian, did you? Now why would I believe that? Why teach a doctrine, that none of the Hebrew writers taught? Why teach a doctrine that the Christ didn't teach? Why teach a doctrine that the twelve Apostles knew nothing about, and diidn't teach it themselves? Why teach that doctrine, when the Hebrew Bible writers, taught that Jehovah was only ONE GOD - NONE LIKE HIM- NO EQUAL? Why teach a doctrine when all of the Greek writers taught only ONE GOD? Both Hebrew and Greek in full harmony one with the other? Both taught, only ONE GOD! How do you get three out of ONE? Great trick if you can really do it, I'd say GT! Shiner
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Post by onpatmos on Dec 17, 2009 17:01:32 GMT -5
Why teach a doctrine that the Christ didn't teach?
Who was it that first said "... the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"? (Matthew 28:19)
When the disciples obeyed Jesus and baptized converts in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - and there is no other way - was that the first time that the converts first heard those three mentioned together, was it "sprung on them" then? What meaning would that have had for them? Really, what is the full significance of being baptized in that name? How much did you or I hear during our years in the organization about what it means to be baptized in that name? This can't just be glossed over or minimized - this is the entrance of a person into the Christian life - in that name. Or does it make more sense that the disciples had already mentioned them together (preached in that name) to converts before baptism?
Jesus used "name" instead of "names" What is the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? Also - what makes more sense - person, person, inanimate force - or - person, person, person?
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Post by shiner on Dec 19, 2009 18:07:41 GMT -5
onpatmos!
Who was it that said: "If he called 'god's' those of whom the word of God came, and yet the scriptures cannot be anulled, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the World, 'You blaspheme,' because I said I am God's Son?" Methinks you'd best argue it out with the one, who I feel very certain knew who he was! And he said, he was God's Son! Or do you know something that the Son of God didn't know about hinmself? if you do, you'd best be informing him about it, don't you think, onpatmos? {John 10:35,36} Shiner
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Post by gkchesterton on Dec 19, 2009 18:10:03 GMT -5
onpatmos! Who was it that said: "If he called 'god's' those of whom the word of God came, and yet the scriptures cannot be anulled, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the World, 'You blaspheme,' because I said I am God's Son?" Methinks you'd best argue it out with the one, who I feel very certain knew who he was! And he said, he was God's Son! Or do you know something that the Son of God didn't know about hinmself? if you do, you'd best be informing him about it, don't you think, onpatmos? {John 10:35,36} Shiner You didn't answer the question or address his point, are you aware of the insertions? |
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Post by massak on Feb 28, 2010 12:43:36 GMT -5
The Trinity The bible does absolutely say there is one Trinitarian God. The problem most people face in realizing this is they do not look at the bible as a whole to understand who God is. They usually hang their hat on a single verse or a series of verses rather than looking at the whole revelation of who God is. So let’s look at the bible as a whole to see who God is. How many Gods are there? Only One a) Mark 12:32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. b) James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. c) Romans 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. d) Isaiah 45:14 This is what the LORD says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, [and those tall Sabeans - they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.' " There is no God but the Lord a) Samuel 7:22 "How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears b) 1 Chronicles 17:20 "There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears. The Father is God a) Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?
The Father is the Lord
a) Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
What is Gods name? The Lord
a) Exodus 15: 2 The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name.
Who is the Lord? The Lord is God
a) Deuteronomy 4: 35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.
b) Deuteronomy 7: 9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.
c) Joshua 2: 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
d) 2 Samuel 7: 22 "How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears
e) 1 Kings 18: 39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"
f) Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
The Lord and God are one in the same
a) Deuteronomy 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength
b) Deuteronomy 10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
c) Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one
Jesus is the Lord
a) Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
b) 1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
c) Luke 24:3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Jesus is God
a) Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
b) Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
c) Matthew 1:23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."
Who Walked among us? Jesus did
a) Leviticus 26: 2 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people. 13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.
b) Matthew 1:23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."
Who is the Rock?
a) Deuteronomy 32: 3 I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! 4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
b) 2 Samuel 22: 32 For who is God besides the LORD ? And who is the Rock except our God?
c) Psalm 18: 30 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him. 31 For who is God besides the LORD ? And who is the Rock except our God?
d) Psalm 18: 46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
e) Isaiah 44:8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
Jesus is the Rock
a) 1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
b) Romans 9:33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.
Proof of the Holy Spirit
a) Matthew 12:31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. – You can not sin directly against a power you can only sin against a living entity or better said the third person of the Trinity
b) Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, - The Holy Spirit is a name, just like the father and the son. A power does not have a personel name, but the third person of the Trinity does.
c) Mark 13:11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. – Who is doing the speaking. A power can not speak, but the third person of the trinity can
d) Acts 1:16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— Again, a person speaks, not a power
e) Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? – How can you lie to a power. You can only lie to something living and in this case the third person of the trinity.
f) Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. – you do not live in accordance with a power, but only with a living entity or in this case the third person of the Trinity
g) Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. – Jesus and the Spirit and linked together and they are living entities
h) Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. – How can a power be a “Himself”. A “Himself is a living thinking being.
i) Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. – Again, only a living enity is a “Himself” and only a living enity has a “Mind”
j) 1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; - A power does not need a place to live, but a living entity does dwell in places.
k) 2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. – how can you have fellowship with a power, you can only have fellowship with a living entity.
l) Galatians 4:29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. – How can a power have a power? Here the Spirit has a power.
m) Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. – How do you grieve a power or non living thing? You can only grieve a living being.
Trinity
a) Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. (Dialogue implied by “US”)
And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy One which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (explicit mention of the Three Divine Persons).
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Post by gkchesterton on Mar 1, 2010 11:51:39 GMT -5
Masak,
Witnesses would raise some logical objections to your post, among them the use of the term Lord.
While I agree with you that the Bible allows for a Trinitarian God it is really through (T)radition that the Trinity becomes a sure bet. Remember that the Arian heresy took with it almost every bishop of the East. The Germanic peoples were _all_ Arian until after the sack of Rome. Arius himself made very strong Biblical claims. Athanasius objected largely on logical grounds.
To that end I think we should see the Trinity as True , but not obvious. Thank-you very much for the scriptures though, I think this will help many think through the problem.
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Post by RoadtoEmmaus on Mar 1, 2010 12:50:11 GMT -5
Massak,
I see that this is your first post, welcome to the forum.
While you make outstanding arguments, I agree with GK regarding your claims regarding HIS name.
One of the aspects that is missing is that a "NAME" in the first century Jewish thought conveyed not only what someone was to be called, but also their nature.
An example:
Revelation 19
16 He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, "King of kings and Lord of lords."
"King of kings and Lord of lords" is not a name here as we know a name to be, but it does convey ultimate authority and power.
The Witnesses argue that LORD was used in the Old Testament to hide the name of Jehovah, YHWH. They have replaced some 6800 uses of LORD in the Old Testament with Jehovah. There is not much debate about whether or not this could be done without changing meaning or intent.
However, they also replace it an estimated 276 times in the New Testament. These scriptures were written in Greek and did not contain the tetragrammaton, YHWH. It is argued that their replacement is selective, and could be done in other places that would indicate the divinity of Christ.
The Witnesses argue that Christ made the Father's Name known to us, and that we should use the name rather than some title. It is more personal and draws us closer to him. (difficult to argue with that, until I hear my wife complain about my son calling her by her first name, rather than mommy!)
As I am a cradle Catholic, and thus a lifelong Trinitarian, it is difficult for me to find errors in your arguments (as I have made the same ones myself.) From Genesis, the Bible reveals Christ. It is HIStory.
I would urge you to develop your position to address the Witness approach. Listen to the experience of the former JW members of this forum. Understanding where they have been, and how they got to where they are now, will actually edify your position.
Pax,
blue
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Post by onpatmos on Mar 2, 2010 10:07:23 GMT -5
Good discussion. Welcome to the forum massak, and thank you for the information. bluestreak said: "Jehovah" appears in the New Testament of the New World Tranlsation 237 times. See here: www.tetragrammaton.org/issue.htmlIt says here that it it replaces "kyrios" ("Lord" or "lord") 223 times and "theos" ("God" or "god") 13 times (see chapter 2, footnote 7): www.tetragrammaton.org/JehovahinNT.htmOr, this information appears (in a somewhat different presentation) in the appendix of the NWT, at least in the Reference Edition if my memory is correct. Regarding massak's points on "Lord", I see a parallel in her points to some statements in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: massak said: Note this in the Catechism: 209 Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce his name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture, the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios)...
446 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the ineffable Hebrew name YHWH, by which God revealed himself to Moses,59 is rendered as Kyrios, "Lord". From then on, "Lord" becomes the more usual name by which to indicate the divinity of Israel's God...Footnote 59 Cf. Ex3:14. massak said: The above sections of the Catechism continue: 209 ...It is under this title that the divinity of Jesus will be acclaimed: "Jesus is LORD."
446 ...The New Testament uses this full sense of the title "Lord" both for the Father and - what is new - for Jesus, who is thereby recognized as God Himself.60Footnote 60 Cf. 1 Cor 2:8. The more I consider the above information, the more I understand the usage of "Lord" for Jesus in the NT, at least in many places, to be attesting to his divinity. By its insertion of "Jehovah" into the New Testament, the NWT has done much to obscure the issue. |
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Post by RoadtoEmmaus on Mar 2, 2010 15:45:02 GMT -5
Onpatmos,
Sorry for the errant number, I wish I could blame it on fat fingers.
Massak,
It might be helpful to know which translation of the Bible you are referencing. Many who use the King James version, among others, are pianted into a corner by Psalms 83:18.
PS 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Pax,
Blue
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Post by gkchesterton on Mar 4, 2010 2:27:34 GMT -5
Onpatmos, Sorry for the errant number, I wish I could blame it on fat fingers. Massak, It might be helpful to know which translation of the Bible you are referencing. Many who use the King James version, among others, are pianted into a corner by Psalms 83:18. PS 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. Pax, Blue An older and wiser me wonders why no one ever said: "Yes, a conclave of protestant religious experts from the Western half of Europe leaning on existing research by Catholic monks wrote that in the early 1600's. This shows that the usage of Jehovah by supposedly false religious organizations was very common prior to Russell" |
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