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Post by dogknox on Jun 10, 2011 13:16:29 GMT -5
I was told at my door by "JW's" that Constantine made the Catholic Church.." NOT Jesus"! How... How do I reply to them?? Dogknox  |
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Post by onpatmos on Jun 10, 2011 15:59:23 GMT -5
You might ask him what he means by that. And to show you proof.
Be prepared; you may hear allegations that the Church has many false doctines, and that Constantine had a hand in implementing them, and that it is actually apostate.
You might prepare by finding a few references to the early uses of the words "Catholic", and "Bishop," and being prepared to share them. There are many records of people before the time of Constantine that believed what Catholics do.
You might also invite this person to read up on the early Church from a relatively unbiased source - for example, an encyclopedia.
(edited for content)
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Post by RoadtoEmmaus on Jun 13, 2011 16:05:33 GMT -5
Welcome to the board... Don't fret too much about this... It is easy to place a great deal on Constantine... Prior to Constantine, Christianity was ILLEGAL...The ability of the Church to demonstrate its practices prior to that time was difficult. The books of the New Testament were not even agreed to until a full generation AFTER the Council of Nicea... If Constantine's actions had such an impact on Christianity, then one might reasonably assume that his pagan ways would similarly have impacted Sacred Scripture... The Witness will agree with you that we should live and worship how the Apostle's did... Look at the writings of the Ante-Nicean Fathers such as Justin Martyr. Justin lived from a.d. 110-165. About 150 years before Constantine was even born.... The following is taken from the First Apology of Justin, see if any of it looks familiar... Chapter LXV.—Administration of the sacraments. But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching,bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we mayoffer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. And this food is called among us [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. One can plainly see the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist as well as many other components of our Mass today! Such as the Sign of Peace, Prayers of the Faithful, Offerings, and Mass on Sunday. This information barely scratches the surface of the formation of the Faith! Constantine is an convenient target for those who wish to attack the church...dont' assume that something that sounds plausible is true just because you have insufficient knowledge with which to refute it. This is actually a common Fundamentalist argument. Karl Keating addresses the issue in his book Catholicism and Fundamentalism, The attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians". This book is an exceptional resource when defending your Faith. If you need more information, please ask. Pax, Blu |
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Post by dogknox on Jun 15, 2011 15:43:09 GMT -5
RoadtoEmmaus Please Explain to me this from your post... Ante-Nicean Fathers such as Justin Martyr.What does it mean " Ante-Nicean" when the Nicean creed and or Council happened after him!! That am I missing?? dogknox 
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Post by RoadtoEmmaus on Jun 17, 2011 11:33:50 GMT -5
The "Ante-Nicean" (Before the council of Nicean) Fathers are those that taught and wrote after the Apostles and before the Council of Nicea. Many of the earliest were taught by the Apostles themselves. Some, like Justin would have lived before Constantine was even born and therefore would be immune from whatever influence Constantine is alleged to have had over the formation of the Catholic Church. As I indicated previously, their writings are full of descriptions of the current teachings and practices of the Catholic Church. These early writings have drawn many Witnesses and Protestants to the Catholic Church. Scott Hahn, if you have heard of him or read his work, was a Presbyterian (if I recall correctly) pastor who researched the teachings and worship of the Apostles and was drawn to the Catholic Church because of the early church fathers. The WTBTS (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) has published "Should you believe in the Trinity" in which they take aim at the Trinity by (mis)quoting the Early Church Fathers, including Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Tertullian, and Origen. Michael J. Partyka responds to their claims in an article linked to by this web-site THE WATCHTOWER AND THE ANTE-NICENE CHURCH FATHERS. This is very important reading. www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/antenicene.htmlVERY POLITELY ask for the references that support their conclusions. ( I say very politely because you don't want to miss the opportunity to minister to them!) If they provide another magazine (i.e. Should You Believe In the Trinity?) Simply ask which of the writings that these quotes came from? You will also note in that tract that there are several "Post hoc" fallacies. A "Post Hoc" fallacy is one that implies that something is true simply because it came after something... (After this...therefore because of this...) This would be akin to claiming that the Japan easthquake was caused by the Gulf Oil Spill, when clearly those incident have no cause-effect realationship, one simply follwed the other. I also seem to remember that almost every example "triune" (three-in-one) gods from pagan culture is from a period AFTER Nicea, therefore this early Church teaching could not have been influenced by them...they are included for effect. (I think that the only Pre-Nicea example would have been separated from the Church by at leaset one very large continent making the possibility of influence moot) Remember... Matthew 16 NWT 18 Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha´des will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you may bind on earth will be the thing bound in the heavens, and whatever you may loose on earth will be the thing loosed in the heavens.” This tells us not only that Jesus would begin the Church here, but also that it would continue. Either Jesus was wrong....or they are.... Hope this is not too much...I tend to get a bit passionate about this subject... Pax, Blu |
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mjp2
Catechumen
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Post by mjp2 on Aug 13, 2011 14:48:59 GMT -5
Michael J. Partyka responds to their claims in an article linked to by this web-site THE WATCHTOWER AND THE ANTE-NICENE CHURCH FATHERS. This is very important reading. Thanks for the referral! I'm planning on publishing an eBook version of the book soon, and I was looking to see if anyone had reviewed it favorably so I could include testimonials in the eBook edition. If this resource has been helpful to you, could you please drop me a line via PM and let me know? Thanks! --Michael J. Partyka |
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