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Post by catholicxjw on May 1, 2008 0:42:06 GMT -5
Tom Cabeen, former Jehovah's Witness Bethel Elder and Pioneer will be interviewed on EWTN's "The Journey Home" on his Conversion to the Catholic Church on May 19th. Tom will also be speaking at our Conference in Weirton, WV in August!!! You can get a taste of Tom's story at: www.catholicxjw.com/Jeff S. |
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Post by catholicxjw on May 16, 2008 15:57:28 GMT -5
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Post by ohioszo on May 19, 2008 21:32:03 GMT -5
Saw it, liked it! My nephew's story is similar to his, except that he was a waiter at Bethel, and, now has a full time job outside Bethel. He is much younger, married, with child; but still a Watchtower member. I felt that Tom was shaking as he spoke about his time as a Watchtower member, and, this reminds me of how I have felt this internal shaking in my nephew's presence at various times when there was a confrontation between my beliefs and his beliefs as he had a tendency to preach to me, his aunt and the person listed at our Parish as his godmother. I had a dream about him and the rosary, and his grandfather: It gave me hope at the time ...
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Post by gusdaberean on May 21, 2008 16:36:55 GMT -5
I heard both interviews the one on EWTN The Journey Home and the freeminds interview but felt dissappointed. I wanted details about his conversion and he just left me empty on the details. I want to know How did he come to accept Purgatory or the sacrifice of the mass or the marian dogmas? What were his obstacle if any especially in light of his JW and evangelical prejudices that may have crossed these? He seemed to just say he read the catechism and that was it, he just accepted everything in the RCC at face value.  I am a bit selfish in wanting to know these details because as a Lutheran who is actually studying to be a pastor I am having some doubts myself and wanted to hear some answers from someone who has made the same journey as I have. Anyway, those are my thoughts. In Him, Gus |
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Post by tcabeen on May 22, 2008 8:05:13 GMT -5
Hi Gus,
Thanks for the kind words. In both interviews, the focus was on the journey itself, and was of necessity given in very broad strokes. Neither was meant to be an apologetic of the Catholic faith. My journey was quite difficult, indeed, as I had to come to grips with so many issues. But this is not something to be tackled in a half-hour presentation of a twenty five year journey.
I don't know if I will ever appear on TJH again, but Randy and I plan on doing a series of interviews on Freeminds in which we discuss a number of issues like the ones you mention separately.
Presenting the Catholic faith to a Protestant is in some ways more difficult than presenting it to a pagan, because there are some underlying assumptions shared by Catholics that are not common to Protestants, so you may have to sort of "backtrack" to first undo the non-catholic assumptions which the Protestant may take for granted. It will be a challenge, to say the least.
In regard to my acceptance of the sacrifice of the mass, I first needed to understand the difference between "unending time" and timelessness (eternity), as well as the doctrine of the Real Presence. Then the idea of the re-presentation of the one eternal sacrifice at the mass began to make sense to me. All the groundwork for it is laid in the early Christian writings, starting with the Didache.
Purgatory is a big bugaboo for many Protestants, but it was not too much of a problem for me, as it is a necessary corollary of our having free will (the issue over which I parted ways with the Baptist church) and the (strong) possibility of one dying without having submitted oneself fully to God, thus in need of cleansing and other preparation prior to being admitted to his presence. I can strongly recommend Catherine of Genoa's "Treatise on Purgatory" to illuminate this. You can find it on line.
My understanding of Mary's role in salvation was built on the early church's (Irenaeus' in particular) explanation of the recapitulation or regeneration of mankind, in which Mary is presented as the second Eve, counterpart to Jesus as the second Adam. Two books that may help you are John Henry Newman's "The Mystical Rose" and Jaroslav Pelikan's "Mary through the Centuries"
Hope this is helpful to you, Gus.
Tom
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Post by bavman on May 22, 2008 12:28:32 GMT -5
Hi Tom. I saw you on "The Journey Home" and enjoyed your presentation. I thought you made some very good points. I posted this question earlier but got no reply's (it would seem this board is a bit slow). I also posted it at JWD so maybe you will see it there...
Do all Catholics interpret the scriptures literally or do they allow for metaphorical interpretation? Such as the miracles of Jesus or the Trinity understanding itself.
I seem to see a difference between some believers and especially between certain traditions within the church itself. Also, between what some priests say and what some of the deep thinkers have written.
Is there room for both views within the Catholic church?
Also, is evolution compatible with Catholic belief?
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Post by gusdaberean on May 22, 2008 16:45:36 GMT -5
You spoke correctly when you said... "Presenting the Catholic faith to a Protestant is in some ways more difficult than presenting it to a pagan, because there are some underlying assumptions shared by Catholics that are not common to Protestants, so you may have to sort of "backtrack" to first undo the non-catholic assumptions which the Protestant may take for granted. It will be a challenge, to say the least." ------------------------ One advantage to the average "evangelical" is my expereience exiting the JW's has enabled me to leave presumptions behind when examining another worldview. You will find that I am approaching this (to the best of my ability) with unbiased eyes. It has already ocurred to me that the Protestant assumptions of the 'sacrifice of the mass" as being a re-sacrifice with multiplicity in mind is wrong. I have read Leo Trese's book "The faith explained" along with the current catechism. I have alot at my disposal since my wife works at CUA (Catholic University of America) here in Washington DC. Ive spoken to the associate dean at the theology dept there before. My readings have confirmed his statements about the mass that it is a sacrifice in perpetuity or in other words the one sacrifice reaching out to us through time or as you so succinctly stated "the eternal sacrifice." Ive been watching videos by a guy called the Paleocrat on You tube and he has made some sense to me on some things. But I cant help but be logical about some of these things and it just doesnt add up for me but that may be because the Catholic worldview is just so different from protestants even liturgical protestantism that I am exposed to. The Paleocrat said that in essence Luther introduced ' a whole new brand of Christianity." New in this sense to me means "very different" and I can see why. As you have mentioned the JW's offer us a different culture so to speak and I believe that some things are cultural in respects to religion. Liturgical Christianity is a different culture from Fundamentalist baptistic Christianity and so on and etc. Lutherans are reverent in worship and Pentecostals are experiential. So in my studies just on the sacrifice of the mass I have come to realize that Catholicism can be maligned and mischaracterized and in some cases this is deliberate and others due to ignorance. But this means I MUST come to understand the Catholic worldview with its own expressions and counter the language barriers. What it means by sanctification or justification which from reading Ken Guidon's book ( I emailed you privately about this book) are words never used in Roman terminology but means something other than what Protestants mean. So I am a sponge and I need someone to teach me and not take my criticisms as attacks. I have some presuppositions but these are from my own examinations and maybe these are in error or ignorant misunderstandings or maybe they are not and I need to eat humble pie and accept. So maybe we can chat here or talk. But I need to talk to someone before I go mad. I am studying to be a Lutheran pastor and this may change my course in my life as you would imagine. I feel as I once did when I was exiting the JW's torn inside. I ponder this a great deal and it has stressed me much. I am once again in a position of either being a true servant of God or an enemy. Truth hurts and it has occurred to me if Protestants r wrong on the mass what else r they wrong about? Hope to hear from you or anyone that is a knowledgable Catholic. Gus |
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Post by onpatmos on May 23, 2008 6:47:49 GMT -5
Welcome to gus, ohioszo, bavman, Tom Cabeen, Jim Whitney, and any other new ones I'm missing.
I liked Tom Cabeen's interview on EWTN; I hope to post more about it some time.
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Post by gkchesterton on Jun 1, 2008 18:58:23 GMT -5
Serious question, I find Freeminds to be more-than-a-little-over-the-top-hostile. They are also a seething pot of gnosticism IMNSHO. If I watch the video, what am I going to see? |
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NanaR
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Post by NanaR on Jun 1, 2008 19:30:44 GMT -5
Serious question, I find Freeminds to be more-than-a-little-over-the-top-hostile. They are also a seething pot of gnosticism IMNSHO. If I watch the video, what am I going to see? It's not a video, it's an audio file (actually there are two audio files). And it is very balanced and well done. I recommend it (and have blogged about it). Ruth |
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Post by gkchesterton on Jun 1, 2008 19:48:57 GMT -5
Serious question, I find Freeminds to be more-than-a-little-over-the-top-hostile. They are also a seething pot of gnosticism IMNSHO. If I watch the video, what am I going to see? It's not a video, it's an audio file (actually there are two audio files). And it is very balanced and well done. I recommend it (and have blogged about it). Ruth Fair enough...I'm listening to it now and it seems less than hostile. Is there a link to an archive version of the Journey Home video? |
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Post by gkchesterton on Jun 1, 2008 20:12:42 GMT -5
"I bought hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of scholarly books" Ain't that the truth. My wife is keen on reminding me that I've spent far more than that. "Anglican church" The TAC and other traditional Anglican communions are more established on the east coast. Was this Traditional Anglican or Episcopal as you say later? If not I suggest at least a read of the 1928 BCP which is a huge improvement over the current BCP that I use in the prayer group that I attend on weekdays at an semi-traditional Anglican parish. "bible reading" Yeah. All of them (EO/Anglican/Catholic) effectively do more Bible reading than the Witnesses do. It was more than a little bit of a shock. My favorite part of morning Anglican prayer is the readings. "reading materials from the Orthodox church" Which readings? "Pontifications" Wonderful site I hear, and it appears to be, back up which is a good thing. I'm going to have to go back and look through any posts you might have made. "The Catholic Catechism" It was also my first serious experience and it is worthy reading no matter where you end up. "catholic-lite" or Half-Way House  "historical evidence" What led you away from Orthodoxy then? What about traditional Anglican claims? "molecular biology...devout Christian" He might not want that to get out at school Any chance that he knows anybody at the Chemical Heritage Foundation? "son's prohibitions..." My children are also a center piece in my drive to settle somewhere. My daughter, though very young, teaches me every day. |
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NanaR
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Post by NanaR on Jun 2, 2008 8:59:50 GMT -5
It's not a video, it's an audio file (actually there are two audio files). And it is very balanced and well done. I recommend it (and have blogged about it). Ruth Fair enough...I'm listening to it now and it seems less than hostile. Is there a link to an archive version of the Journey Home video? gk: The archived video of Tom's Journey Home episode was only available online for about a week and has been replaced now. But you can listen to the audio of the program here: www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=jh_05192008.rmPeace to you, Ruth |
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Post by tcabeen on Jun 2, 2008 11:09:25 GMT -5
Replies to ghchesterton: Anglican church: The TAC and other traditional Anglican communions are more established on the east coast. Was this Traditional Anglican or Episcopal as you say later? If not I suggest at least a read of the 1928 BCP which is a huge improvement over the current BCP that I use in the prayer group that I attend on weekdays at an semi-traditional Anglican parish.Neither of these. Our parish was/is a member of ECUSA, with an orthodox vicar who does not get along at all with the bishops of his diocese. It is a cause of constant tension for him. I saw the problem as unresolvable in any way that would ultimately produce unity. I have met and spoken to the bishop of the AMIA, Thaddeus Barnum, and our family attended a service at his parish in Fairfield, CT. A couple of good friends are members there. Our (Episcopal) priest was not at all in favor of the ECUSA fragmenting into several separate communions, but it seems there are only two possibilities, division or abandonment by clergy and laity alike, for RCC or Orthodox communions. bible reading: My favorite part of morning Anglican prayer is the readings.Mine, too. When I was there, we organized morning prayer on a daily basis, which I attended every day. Prior to our arrival, it was only one day a week, and it reverted to that after we left. As a Catholic, I replaced Anglican morning and evening prayer with the Catholic Liturgy of the Hours. I also attend mass daily. reading materials from the Orthodox church: Which readings?“Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells”, Matthew Gallatin; “The Rebirth of Orthodoxy”, Thomas Oden; “The Church, Tradition, Scripture, Truth and Christian Life” Hierodeacon Gregory, “Scripture and Tradition”, Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, among others. I also consider the Eastern patristic writers to be more “Orthodox” than “Catholic” in their perspective. Pontifications: Wonderful site I hear, and it appears to be, back up which is a good thing. I'm going to have to go back and look through any posts you might have made.Don’t bother. I rarely if ever posted anything there. I was very much a catechumen; I never felt myself qualified to even post among that august bunch of thinkers. I may have posted once; a list of books that I found helpful. It was on that site that I learned that Catholic/Orthodox thinkers were not as I had been taught, a bunch of misled bozos who never even bothered to read “the plain statements of the Bible”. To the contrary, they opened my eyes for the first time to what clear thinking is all about, and in the process showed me the absolute necessity for dogma as the foundation for any productive theological exploration (as opposed to simple personal speculation). Unless one learns to do simple arithmetic and geometry and feels absolutely certain that its axioms are reliable, one can never progress to algebra, calculus or other symbolic mathematical studies. historical evidence: What led you away from Orthodoxy then? What about traditional Anglican claims?I cannot tell you how much I loved the Anglican church. Its liturgy and music are the most beautiful I have ever seen. I love Anglican chant, and in the words of another Anglican convert to the RCC, when asked what he missed most about the Anglican church, replied “the mass in English.” But at the end of the day, I became absolutely convinced that the most important and necessary gift Christ had provided for his disciples was his own sacred body and blood, miraculously transformed when common bread and wine is consecrated by an authorized minister of the Gospel, whose authority to consecrate comes in an unbroken, direct line from the apostles themselves. They were given that power from Jesus himself, who said that only by eating his flesh and drinking his blood could one “have eternal life.” “The breaking of the bread” was the one thing I could absolutely verify had always been an constant among Christians. Whatever their other disagreements, this teaching is so absolutely and clearly established among Christians for the first fourteen centuries that I simply could not deny it. Many other things had changed down through the years: doctrines had developed, outward appearances had been altered, liturgies had been modified, methods of disciple-making introduced, relationships with secular authorities had evolved, buildings had been erected and decorated in various ways, but there, in the midst of it all, unaltered and constant, from the very day of Christ’s resurrection down to today, was the celebration of the Eucharist. (For a detailed discussion of the earliest Eucharistic celebrations, I can highly recommend “The Mass of the Apostles” by Joseph Husslein, S. J. (1929) It is out of print, but you may be able to find a copy at a Divinity School library. I have an old copy.) At the Reformation, the Anglicans broke with the Catholic Church. The Catholic church, after much research, announced after more than three centuries (thus hardly a knee-jerk reaction) that the Anglicans had invalidated their holy orders. (See the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Anglican Orders for details.) If that is true, then despite all their convictions to the contrary, no Anglican priest can validly consecrate the Eucharist, and no Anglican today is actually partaking of the body and blood of Christ, only bread and wine. The Anglicans, of course, contest the Roman pronouncement. But too much is at stake for me. I want the real thing. And, as God is my witness, that is why I am a Roman Catholic. There was just too much at stake for me to take that risk. Sadly (I wanted the Anglican orders to be valid in the worst way, but the evidence on their side boiled down to “he said she said”.) As far as Orthodoxy goes, probably the most important reason at the time that we did not go to the Orthodox church, despite the validity of their holy orders, is that it is inconvenient (there are no Orthodox parishes in our town, but there are five Catholic parishes). molecular biology...devout Christian: He might not want that to get out at school Any chance that he knows anybody at the Chemical Heritage Foundation?All his co-workers and professors at his school know he is a very devout Catholic. (A tenured professor from his department was confirmed on the same day Matt was.) Matt has no problems reconciling faith and science, and neither does any orthodox Catholic. The two are completely separate, apples and oranges. Matt is also a Harvey Fellow, one of relatively few Catholics who are. I doubt that he knows anyone at the CHF. His professional associations are mostly limited to a highly-specialized group of MBs working on specialized proteins called "intermediate filaments".
son's prohibitions...: My children are also a center piece in my drive to settle somewhere. My daughter, though very young, teaches me every day.Sorry, I don’t remember what I said about my son’s prohibitions. Must be “old timer’s disease” setting in. Your brother, Tom |
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Post by NanaR on Jun 2, 2008 11:52:36 GMT -5
" What about traditional Anglican claims? gk: You might find this site interesting: www.stthomasmoresociety.org/Fr. Bergman, a former Anglican priest in Scranton, PA, is now a Roman Catholic priest, and most of his parish has now become Roman Catholic also. There is an Anglican Use Rite for the Mass that has been approved by the Holy Father. Fr. Bergman is married and has children. There are six Anglican Use Parishes in the United States: www.anglicanuseconference.com/Parishes.htmPax, Ruth |
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